DIY Filtration.

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

I've been working out which way to inject Co2 and I figured I would just make it part of a filtration system. so the design is this.

Flow rate should be around 150GPH, tho I may have to reduce it so it doesn't blow all the sand out of the fluidized bed.

each tube is 17.5" high, and 4.5" in diameter (maybe 4") and uses 1/2" ID tubing. It will take some messing around with the sand to mark the levels, but it should provide huge biological filtration. I may also consider adding a UV sterilizer down the road between the Co2 chamber and the fluidized bed.

A) do you think this will provide adequate filtration for a 125Gal (it will also have a fluval 304 on the tank) (best answer I can find is that the fluidized bed should handle about 300Gal)

B) Is 150GPH enough flow to effectively inject Co2 into this tank? (pressurized Co2) or should I move it to a seperate powerhead @ 295GPH.

Thanks for any info. (I accidentally posted this over in FW General, but I guess it belongs here.)

 

[greenmaji]

I saw it in FW general.. I thought about it but didnt post..

Im not so sure you would need a hole reaction chamber for the CO2 injection..
If it was injected at the begining of the first chamber in the loop what would happen?

 

[BlazerFRS]

I agree with green magi; your fluidized bed should provide plenty of room for bacteria; you should be able to drop the last chamber and inject at the first.

Actually I would consider injecting before the pump-impellors tend to knock bubbles apart very well.

 

[greenmaji]

I was to consider injecting CO2 before pump; I was thinking about that. If its a good pump (like a MAG or something) then using a redusing line on the CO2 line, the ones used for in tank ordements, I think its 1/16th inch line, would help prevent airlock..

I couldn't figure out punctuation for the above writing so please excuse its strageness.. LOL..

anyway.. HTH

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Problem I had was 2 fold, 1, the flow is backwards for the other 2 (top to bottom is required), bioballs are just there to break up the bubbles. also putting it first makes it the mech. filtration so the balls would collect leave pieces and such..

I will be adding the Co2 directly to a chamber, but what else could I put in a chamber that doesn't restrict flow and allows top-bottom flow?

(sorry about having 2 threads going, figured DIY was more appropriate.)

 

[BlazerFRS]

I don't think top to bottom flow is required to diffuse the co2. The sponge filters and fluidized bed should break the bubbles up plenty. JMO. If you're set on injecting into your cannisters, I'd do it at the bottom of the sponge one.

I do think the simplest solution would be to inject into the pump's inflow tho. Impellers do a nice job breaking up bubbles

also putting it first makes it the mech. filtration so the balls would collect leave pieces and such..

Maybe i've misunderstood your diagram; you want to put the bioballs first? I thought "out to tank" would mean the filter output to the tank, so flow would be the other way...

Anyway I doubt bioballs would do much mechanical filtration, I think a sponge is your best bet for that. I'd probably put a sponge prefilter on the inlet hose anyway to prevent anything big from getting sucked through your filter's impeller. Lot easier to clean that way too, IMO.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Sorry, to clarify a little, I will be using bioballs with a downward flow to force the absorbtion (absolutely no bubbles will make it to the tank).. while "breaking them up" is important with most inlines, when trying to push bubbles down in water it will be broken up and absorbed, never "blown out".. Breaking it up early will make little to no difference AFAIK, bubbles all float (and are being pushed down, not helped up and out), (look at an Aquamedic 1000 reactor, same design less then 1/2 the price)

After thinkin about the fludized bed, I may use gravel instead, or something that doesn't compact as tightly. I heard if the power fails or the pump is turned off for more then an hour, your bacteria will start to die.. tho I'll have to research this a little more first.

a great article on fluidized beds.

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Wilkins_Fluidised_Bed_Filters.html

Which looks like I'll continue with the sand route. This could be fun NOW HURRY UP SHIPPING COMPANIES, I WANT TO PLAY.....

 

[BlazerFRS]

If you do end up using bioballs they would probably hold enough bacteria to jump-start a re-cycle after a long power outage. even a regular filter would probably exp. a signifigant die off after a long power outage, as fish wastes are no longer being actively caried to the colony.

 

[JProx]

i was going to post ealier, but does the design go from right to left, where water enters in via the bio ball area and is replaced to the tank from the sponge area or am i just a little confused?

all filters will experience bacterial die off from a power outage, but it can take a few hours for it to happen. the only expection is live rock and it will have die back too but it will take much longer to happen.

are you planning on diy'ing the bed filter ?

you might want to check out the rainbow line of filters, your design has alot of similarity to theirs, it might be a good way to check out what they have done to overcome some minor problems.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

It's left to right, And I've looked at the Pentair Aquatics model of virtually the same thing.

I've been looking at the Pentair one, Thsi is 250$ cheaper for me to build so I took the rough idea from what they offered and adapted it to use cheaper modules.

The plus side to this is I can use anything that would go in one of their modules.. The pressure guage looks like a good idea (to mark when to change the filter media)..

I'm hoping that I can put a micron filter in this one if I want to, making it almost a diatom filter aswell. I can also add modules, and put an adapter allowing for drain and fill to the filter (no more sticking hoses in the tank).. I think this will work out with so many benefit's and no real drawbacks.

Blazer, you are right, every closed filter system suffers the same dieoff from a power outage, oxygen starvation, it's just a question of how much die off there will be. I can also add an emergency pump that runs off a battery inline with the main pump, it will keep water moving at a slower rate, but it will still be moving. We'll have to see how the final turnout is to see what all I've added (I could also put a PVC tube in there to add my heater inline)

 

[greenmaji]

entering it before the pump would force the CO2 up down it doesnt matter its already dissoved way before its even to the 2nd stage most likely..

and the down up flow in the second stage would not hurt anything.

the DIY route is very possible.. Ive seen it done on another forum.. though all the pic's are dead..

they make a end cap that is tighted via a wing nut that expands a rubber washer into up to 6 or 8 inch pvc pipe.. the 4 inch ones were more reasonable $ wise when I was looking at it..
it would just be a matter of getting a long piece of 4inch pvc and enough caps and conectors to build your inline filter..

I dont think of dieoff..
how long is your power out on average?
how bad does ice storms knock out power up there? we dont have power outages down here (unless there's a torrnato or something really odd)

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Aside from the big blackout (24 hrs+), it very rarely goes out, if it does it's for at the most 15 mins.

My concern about introducing the Co2 early is the effect to the fluidized bed, if Co2 bubbles start grabbign sand and helping them up, I'll soon have sand everywhere and no biological filtration.. Also, would the Co2 suffocate the bacteria and cause instability for it (doubt it since it will probably be in the water it takes in)

 

[BlazerFRS]

As Magi said, that impeller is going to dominate any bubbles that you feed it; it's gonna be close to 100% dissolved by the time it reaches the fluidized bed. I don't see the bubbles lifting your sand being an issue.

If your worried about sand escaping into the tank you could put a good sized "u" in the outflow pipe, like the trap on a sink. the commercial filters probably have a more elegant way of doing it, but a big enough u would work too.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Sounds like 6 one, half dozen the other.. except I don't have to worry about a random bubble getting to the second chamber and lifting sand. (even if it's 5 bubbles per hour, every day that will be 120 grains of sand getting thrown out of the chamber. The idea is to never have to open that chamber (not even to refill it))

the U tube would be doubtful, assume a 2" tube, it has a surface area of 3.14"^2, the chamber has a surface area of 12.56"^2. making the pressure (flow rate) 4 x higher in that u tube, it will not stop the sand, even a maze of tunnels will not stop it from travelling through. to see this effect watch the tube when you're vacumming gravel, a piece of debris can take a long time to get to the top of the tube, but once it hits the opening for the hose, it's gone, travelling at ~ 8x the speed.

In either case I will get 100% diffusion.

 

[greenmaji]

CO2 does not force O2 out of the water, very high conentrations of CO2 are possible while O2 as at saturation (much more CO2 then plants can use).. so no.. CO2 being injected before your fluidised bed filter will not cause O2 starvation of your benificial bacteria.

the propeller in a pump will let bubbles pass.. its not really possible by the way centifugal (rotating impellers) pumps work.. and on top of that you have a first chamber that is perfectly able to disolve the CO2 all by itself after the pump.. you would already have insurance against CO2 bubbles occuring.. you will get 100% diffusion before your second chamber.. putting a 3rd add on CO2 reation chamber would be less effecent design for CO2 defusion then injecting before the pump.

it sounds like your intrested in overbuilding.. and the 3rd chamber would do that for you.. It would work.. so I think debating it with you is well.. kinda pointless.. if you want insurance against O2 starvation of bactera (wich isnt a problem) and insurance against "bubbles" getting into your fluidezed bed (wich you will have with the first stage)

I dont think sand is the only media that would do the job by the way if your concerned about it getting back into the tank.. (any bio-media should do, plastic beads were used in the first ones I saw on the market, back when they called the company just plain Rainbow )

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Ok, so assume I remove the third chamber, will 150GPH be able to provide a constant Co2 level for a 125Gal tank? or should the flow rate be higher (in which case I have to move the Co2 to a different powerhead).

Assume a lot of plants.

 

[czcz]

I think it will be plenty, even after accounting for loss for the fluidized bed and stuff from rated pump GPH. Travis had great diffusion with a bioball reactor inline with his canister filter iirc. I think as long as you have complete diffusion, fast flow through the tank will only help get CO2 around.

Very interesting project. I like the idea of leaving space for a micron filter should you need it. Interested in your ideas on implementation of this as well.

 

[greenmaji]

IMHO you just need the water moving on top of getting the CO2 injected.. 150GPH sounds plenty to get the CO2 disolved.. if you need more flow to get up to 5cycles per hour then you can use a closed loop or some power heads to get the rest of the flow (regardless of the sorce flow will keep the CO2 moving around)

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

I'll have a play when the parts get in. as for a micron filter internally.. it could be interesting to see how it will work. Not sure of the pressure required to push water through the filter. However, adding a "tank" part with 2 barbed fittings would allow a standard diatom filter to be hooked up and run when wanted. more on this later.

After consideration, I'ld rather keep the Co2 process seperate, this allows me to install a bypass to keep the water flowing through the bed filter while I change the media in the mechanical filter. (simple check valve on mech cannister, flow director going to mech/bypass)

I'll have a better idea of what I can do when the parts come in and I can duck over to home depot to see what fittings I need. and I'll definately test everything before I start making a mess of the floor (And I'll document it too.)

 

[czcz]

How about keeping the nipple and adding a valve for the CO2 intake, so its easy to AB versus the other diffusion method(s) you are considering?