I've Jumped Over the Planted Tank fence!

[pitt420dude]

So what if my picture appears in the dictionary next to "Fiscal irresponsibility." Student loans can wait right? I hope to keep the final total of the planted transition below what my economic stimulus rebate is ($600). It should be close.

So here is my situation with where I'm at and an accounting (which is more from my own use but feel free to comment). For convenience, my questions are numbered. Feel free to answer as many as you'd like.:

WHAT I'VE GOT:
Fantastic Sources and lots of help: Aquarium advice. $0.00.
Lights: Catalina 4x54w HO T5s (2x10,000k and 2x6,500k) w/ lunar lights. $185. They arrive in 2 weeks. Q1: If I get a fan for these lights (so I can run them while my canopy is on) where should I get this?
CO2: Tank and Fill: $75
Milwaukee MA957 Regulator & SMS222 pH controller & DIY Reactor: $125 (thanks C.M.!!!) I still need to connect the reactor to the inflow of my filter (going into the filter). Q2: What will I need to do this? Q2.5: Do the electrodes in the controller go bad and where would you get one replaced?
Plants: Some swords and crypts on the way (thanks H.G.!!!),$9.95 and a hygro and crypt I bought at the LFS $15.

Total so far (3/13): $410

WHAT I STILL NEED:
Substrate: I still need to get this and have decided to mix some of my gravel in with it. Q3: I'm thinking Turface MVP (where do you get this?) or Eco-complete (where do you get this? LFS wants $27 per 20 lbs. bag.) Q4: Do I need root tabs if I get one of these substrates?

Test Kit/Drop checker: I don't have any of this stuff either. I know Hagen has been suggested and I've been told not to even bother w/ testing Iron and Phosphate. Q5: Where do you suggest getting these kits?

Timer/Powerstrip: I have no idea about these but Q6: the timer is necessary right? Brand and seller suggestions?

Ferts: I may have asked but don't recall. I think Greg Watson's have been suggested.Q7: What do I need and where should I get it? I plan on using the Estimative Index dosing method (Q8: fool proof for a noob right?) Q8: Now I have a big bottle of BigAl's comprehensive plant fert, which I gather is pretty much useless?

More Driftwood: Q9: Again, suggestions as to what/where to buy? I'm hesitant to go find my own but very tempted.

Misc. thoughts and concerns:
By far the most intimidating thing for me is the CO2 and fertilzation of planted tanks. These seem like the biggest opportunities for error/disaster. I want to make the transition as easy as possible for my fish, but swapping the substrate and completely reconfiguring my tank will likely be stressful for them. I'm also concerned about an algea outbreak...I hate algea.

I don't yet have a clear vision for exactly what I want to do as far as aquascaping goes, but am completely enamoured w/ T. Simonoson's tanks and really love his aquascaping. I have a basic understanding of plant placement (foreground, middle, back). Ricci and Glosso is a must for me, as well as some nice reds and some more DW.

Q10: Am I missing/forgetting anything? Q11: Comments/suggestions on how I'm doing?

 

[Purrbox]

A1: I think most people use PC fans. You can pick up a separate plug and wire them together. A search on the net should provide information on how to do this.
Q3: Go to the Manufacture Website for Turface and check. They've got a great new interface that allows you to select the product and state and it'll give you a list of retailers. For Eco Complete you're going to pay a pretty penny reguardless of where you buy. Occationally you'll see an online special with free shipping, but I haven't seen one lately.
Q4: If you go with Turface a dusting of mulm, peat moss, or some root tabs would give it a nice kick start. Eco complete on the other hand already has nutrients to start with, so you wouldn't need to worry about supplementing it for probably a year or so.
Q5: Actually it's Potassium and not Phosphate that you shouldn't bother testing. You do want to pick up a good kit for Phosphate. BigAls used to be the place to get the Hagen Master Test Kit, but they've either got a typo on the site or have majorly hiked the price. Elsewhere it's still pretty expensive and out of stock. You'll want to pick up the SeaChem Phosphate Test Kit since it's nearly as good as the lab grade kits. Perhaps an API Master Test Kit for the basics, and then a GH/KH Test Kit separately.
Q6: Just go to your hardware store and pick one up. Make sure that it accomodates three prong plugs if necessary.
Q7: Greg Watson no longer sells dry ferts. He's sold the business which you can still buy from AquariumFertilizer. You can also buy from Rex Griggs. The Rex's Combo Pack would be a good starting place and has all the ferts you'd definatley need. Depending on how soft your water is or if the Calcium and Magnesium are out of balance you may find that you need a GH booster as well. Once you get really experienced you may decide to play around with iron dosing, but for now the iron in the CSM+B is plenty. Oh and EI is a great starting place for learning fertilization.
Q8: Never heard of it and no idea if it's a descent fert or not.
Q9: I've gotten some great pieces of Malaysian Driftwood through Drs Foster Smith. I've also bought from the LFS and other hobbiests. Some people have gotten great deals on eBay or Aquabid.
Q11: You're doing great gathering all the information that you need. I think you're definatley on the right track. I wouldn't worry about stressing the fish. I've changed substrates with them in the aquarium and they didn't mind a bit. Just be careful not to dump or drop anything on them and they'll be fine. You're going to have algae, but as you gain experiance it'll be easier and easier to get rid of and soon you'll know what to do just by glancing at the aquarium and noting the algae present and the condition of your plants.

 

[Angry the Clown]

This site can help you find a turface dealer near you:
Profile Products | Where to Buy

 

[ingg]

For timers, hit Wal Mart.

There is a Brinks Outdoor/indoor timer, they go maybe 10 bucks or so. It isn't digital, which is nice because if the power goes it doesn't need to be reset - but it doesn't use the pins of the economy timers, either, you click tabs up or down around the wheel, they just stay on the wheel, no losing tabs. Face has a plastic shield. Really nice for the money.


For a test kit, go to Petsmart.com, print out the page for price on the test kit (NO STRIPS), and they will honor it in store.


Personally, now that I have used it, I simply love manzanita wood. Lots of sources, the guys at manzanita.com have it presanded and ready to soak - it'll be around $70 for a small package, and around $100 for a large.

Large package was easily three times what I could use in my 180g - I'm who sold that lot to Neilanh for his 125g. I did my 180g, a huge root burl and thick piece in a 75g, and have a nice thicket of twiggy stuff left over, as well as the pack I sold Neilanh, for $104 I think it was. Essentially, enough to do 4 good sized tanks in that large package.

Three things to know about manzanita - first, you have to soak it. Bathtub, garbage can, plastic bin, whatever. Thicker it is, longer it takes. Second, it will release a slime coat for a while at first. It will almost look like diatoms coming right out of the wood. Don't freak, it does go away, and is much mroe prevalent in the thicker pieces. Third, it leeches a heck of a lot of tannins - my 75g is tea colored still right now from a mosnter burl in it. This also fades in time, and it helps to do water changes as you soak it (more than the two I did, hehehe).

Should you go that route, I'd almost swear it was Rich I talked to - call in, tell them you want an aquarium package, and you can ask for specifics, like if you want lots of branchy/twiggy pieces, or only thicker pieces please, or if you want a burl (think tree stump) or two...


Any old power strip that'll handle the wattage - I tend to get a simple middle of the road one x 2. Filters, pumps, heaters, go into first one - and light timer is plugged into first one.

Second one is plugged into the timer, and then lights plugged into it. this is for my smaller tanks - the 180g is a wee bit different, it is on its own circuit. Lights are in one plug, UV and pump in another, inline pump in another, filter and heater in another for my 180g; but that sucker can draw some serious power when all running at once.



Substrate: Turface works, look for Lesco's in your area. They should have it in stock. It is inert, so root tabs are a good idea when using it. They might also still have Soilmaster Select, which also works - being discontinued and replaced by Turface.

 

[ingg]

Q5: Actually it's Potassium and not Phosphate that you shouldn't bother testing. You do want to pick up a good kit for Phosphate. BigAls used to be the place to get the Hagen Master Test Kit, but they've either got a typo on the site or have majorly hiked the price. Elsewhere it's still pretty expensive and out of stock. You'll want to pick up the SeaChem Phosphate Test Kit since it's nearly as good as the lab grade kits. Perhaps an API Master Test Kit for the basics, and then a GH/KH Test Kit separately.

Potassium is one of the first ferts I typically see deficiency on. Agree, in that I don't test for it, but do learn to recognize the signs - if you see pinholes in older leaves, or withering edges/tips of leaves, odds are you are short potassium.

 

[mom2reds]

Pitt420dude I love your post I am learning a ton just from reading your post.
GREAT QUESTIONS

 

[pitt420dude]

Pitt420dude I love your post I am learning a ton just from reading your post.
GREAT QUESTIONS

LOL, the ones anwering the questions deserve the praise. Isn't AA fantastic!!!

It appears you and I are entering the planted tank realm together (at least temporally). I should be getting my lights next week and am gearing up as you can see. I still have quite a bit of shopping to do.

Some more questions:

I havent decided what I'm going to do yet, but as you can see in my album there is some coral and rock (all dead of course since it's FW) in my tank. I've heard that CO2 fert will destroy these and make them break down faster but I'm wondering, Q12: Should I take these out of the tank? Don't they add Ca, kH and GH to the tank, which are all good things?

I've spent some time in R. Griggs site and he says one of the worst tanks for going planted is mine (55 gal) b/c it's hard to create a sense of depth. Q13:Any tips advice or suggestions for how to combat the lack of depth in my tank?

My filtration consists of a Marineland HOB filter and a skimmer which leads down to a sump. The sump tank is 15 gal IIRC and the water falls down over a 3 year old bag of charcoal (I stopped replacing it and everything stayed healthy) and other filtration media. Q14: Is any of this filtration going to cause excessive CO2 off-gasing making it difficult to keep 30ppm of CO2 in the tank? Q15: Shouldn't my pressurized CO2 system w/ solenoid and ph controller sort of take care of this?

Q16: As far as ferts go, do I need to get all of these before I heavily plant or should I wait/test to see which I need to buy and just buy them individually as I need them so I can avoid buying ferts I don't need?

 

[ingg]

Take coral out. I don't like PH buffers in my tank, which is what they are - they mess with calibrating CO2 levels.

55 gallon tanks are a challenge. I was never able to do it. I traded my 55g for a 75g, much easier to work with for me. My 55g always turned into a jungle on me, as it wasn't wide enough for me to separate foreground from background. Not always a bad thing, just be very careful about using tall wide plants, they get wide over the foreground.

Depends on your substrate. I'd get ferts, myself, and at least root tabs to jump start the substrate. You'll end up needing them in the end I think.

 

[An t-iasg]

I would take the coral and SW rock out too. They buffer in an uncontrolled way - you won't know how much carbonate they are putting into the tank and like ingg says, it will affect your CO2 levels. With more buffers in the tank, the CO2 may have to work harder. No sense making the CO2 run more than it needs to and then you'd have to get a fill-up sooner.

I have needed to buffer my CO2-injected tanks in the past but I used a commercial aquarium buffer that I could control the amount going into the tank.

Since these rocks were in your dad's SW tank (right?) in case they have meaning to you, you should definitely remove them, as the CO2 over time will eat away and destroy them.

In a heavily planted tank, with high lighting, and pressurized CO2, I would have the ferts on hand and ready to go.

 

[mom2reds]

Pitt420 I hope you don't mind me asking ? here as well I am also trying to figure out the fert. thing I have a 100 gal. tank with a 150 pounds of sand blasting gravel in mine and I really can't aford to replace it at this time, and was wondering what the best thing to do as far weather to use root tabs or just the dry ferts, I am not going to be doing co2 just low to med. low lights.

Thanks Tess

 

[pitt420dude]

Thanks for the info about the coral and the ferts; the coral will be gone and the ferts will be purchased. Q17: Should I remove the coral now or can I wait until the day I go heavily planted?

No of course I don't mind you asking questions in here mom2reds. Unfortunately I really don't know squat about substrates.

Did you read the sticky Research and references? There is a section about substrates there but it is sort of limited. It's helpful yes, but doesn't go into great detail about why the substrates do what they do.

There are soooooo many options for a planted substrate, sand, normal coated gravel, flourite, laterite, onyx sand, eco-complete, turface mvp, etc... It seems to me like the only one that is completely ready to go, is Eco-complete. Everything else needs root tabs or ferts (or mulm as was suggested) to kick start it's nutritional value (I think).

I guess if you're dosing you can use any substrate you want, so long as the roots can grow through it. Q18: But don't root feeders need a nutrient rich substrate? I'm confused about how this all works w/ the planted substrate.

I also have a question about using a pH controller. Q19: If my tap water is 6.9, and I have my controller set to release CO2 until the ph gets down to 7, no CO2 will be released into my tank right? My ph now is usually around 7.4 (which is good right? b/c CO2 only lowers it). Do I have to raise my ph so that it can be lowered by the controller and CO2? I'm just wondering if when i take the coral and other alkaline things out, and put more DW in (which will lower the ph w/ tannins), might my CO2 never kick on if I'm using a controller? What am I missing?

 

[mom2reds]

I have been reading the insturctions on root tabs and it say to place them every so many sq inch in the tank that is a lot of tabs for my tank I was wondering if there is a place that I could get these in bulk or at least cheaper. My LFS sales the API root tabs that come 10 to a package and that is supposed to be enough for a 10 gallon tank if you follow the instructions for 8 dollars a package I would have to have like ten of them. Or do I just need to place one or two under the plants that I want to feed?

I read the stickies just could not tell for sure if it would work, I have one crypt plant that has done really well in my tank as is( stock light and no ferts.

Good luck with your PH issuses,

 

[pitt420dude]

So are plant tabs only needed if your not dosign ferts? Do you not need a mineral/nutrient rich substrate if you plan on dosing ferts?

 

[happygirl65]

Root tabs are helpful to all root feeding plants like swords and crypts. They are especially helpful in a non-nutrient rich soil, and even then you can add them later after the plants use up a good deal of the nutrients in the substrate. (Someone correct me if I am wrong. ) Dosing ferts is a separate issue, you should have/do both.

You can get cheaper root tabs at bigalsonline.com about half the price on the flourish root tabs over my LFS.

Pitt, if you want more CO2 injected you just have set the controller to a lower target value if it is not kicking on...the idea is to set it and it should stay at a fairly stable value.

Assuming your parameters arent changing for other reason...like low buffering capacity it should work for you.

But to really know your target CO2 number you really should have/read up on getting a drop checker. It helped me tremendously. Before I had that I didn't really know what my target pH should be and that is something that is variable from tank to tank. I had no idea what my CO2 saturation level was until I got that.

 

[mom2reds]

If I get the root tabs and then dose seachem's flourish coprehensive supplement would that be enough for low to medium low light plants, I will be running two 65 watt 6700K bulbs and 1 antic bulb for the color.

 

[happygirl65]

Tess,
Are the 65W bulbs PC, T5? That does make a difference in your light level.

But I think in your situation you could start with that and see how it goes. Root tabs and comprehensive should be fine, just watch the plants for deficiencies and adjust your ferts accordingly. Are you planning to use CO2? Or keep it low tech?

Also remember that any change you make with ferts, lighting, algae reduction, etc takes time to see the effect so give it at least 2-3 weeks between changes to really see the difference. Patience is key....the hardest thing too!

 

[mom2reds]

Happygirl65 thanks for your reply my light are pc and I will be recieving them next week no I don't want to do CO2 at this time, Yes patientce is very hard but I have been waiting a year to get these lights so I want to do things right my tank is in my living room it is the first thing you see when you walk into my house so I don't want a bunch of algea in it. I am just trying to get things figured out befor I put my lights on. Maybe with everyones help I will be able to get things at least somewhat right.

Thanks

 

[An t-iasg]

I also have a question about using a pH controller. Q19: If my tap water is 6.9, and I have my controller set to release CO2 until the ph gets down to 7, no CO2 will be released into my tank right? My ph now is usually around 7.4 (which is good right? b/c CO2 only lowers it). Do I have to raise my ph so that it can be lowered by the controller and CO2? I'm just wondering if when i take the coral and other alkaline things out, and put more DW in (which will lower the ph w/ tannins), might my CO2 never kick on if I'm using a controller? What am I missing?

I would remove the coral now and do a water change. About the above question, that's why I buffered my water in my CO2-injected tank before. Now I am not using a buffer, since my Eco-Complete is new and my KH is 5dh. IME, in about a 8 months to a year, the buffering capacity will be exhausted and my regular tap KH of 3 won't allow the CO2 to attain the level I would like without a large pH drop.

Have you seen this chart? http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

Scroll about halfway down to see the pH/KH/CO2 table. You have to know what your KH value is before you set your pH meter. If your KH is 5, and you would like about 30 ppm of CO2, then you'd set your meter for 6.6. Don't worry if it takes a few days of tweaking the knob until it stops blinking at 6.6. The increments around the knob aren't all that precise so you may need to adjust it frequently when you first set it up. The controller itself is precise but the knob can be hard to read accurately.

When I buffered my water, I used Seachem's Alkaline Buffer to raise my KH to 5. As you can see on the chart, decreasing KH values require more CO2 injection to hit the targeted level of CO2. Since I didn't want to maintain my pH that low, I chose to use a buffer.

 

[Purrbox]

A12 & A17: I concur with what other have recommended. Go ahead and remove it now and do a large water change so that you can get a baseline on your KH and determine what pH you're aiming for.
A13: You might want to consider building some terraces in strategic locations. Some nice large pieces of driftwood could also help.
A14: Since you're going high tech you're going to want to remove the skimmer (useless in FW anyway) and the sump. You could make the sump work, but why make it any harder on yourself than you have too. The HOB should be fine as long as it doesn't have any bio wheels. If it has bio wheels, then go ahead and remove them, they're more gimmick than function anyway.
A15: Yes to a degree, but you'll end up refilling your CO2 cylinder much more often which is a waste of money that you could easily avoid.
A16: Go ahead and buy the KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, and CSM+B now. You'll definately need them. You can wait on the GH booster to see if you need it and you won't need the iron anytime soon.
A18: You can achieve a nutrient rich substrate for heavy root feeders by either using one that starts that way, or supplementing with root tabs.
A19: An t-iasg has really covered this one for you well. Just wanted to add that you're looking for approximately a drop of 1 in the pH to achieve 30ppm CO2.

For root tabs you can also make your own using powdered art clay and dry ferts. This is especially nice if you're targeting a particular deficiency in your heavy root feeders.

 

[pitt420dude]

Some of those answers got me excited. A lower ph means I may finally be able to keep some German Ram Cichlids alive. Soooo beautiful. Ant-iasg thank you for your explanation. I'll probably want to buffer too. All of the coral is out, I still have some dead sw rocks (yes they're from my dad's old sw tank) and I want to leave some caves, so I'll leave it until I get my DW.

I definitely want a black substrate. Q20: Does flourite, laterite start w/ the goodies (nutrient rich), or do they need supplemented w/ tabs? Eco-complete and turface comes nutrient rich right?

The idea is that with time, mulm and the water column/ferts make the substrate nutrient rich, so the ones that don't start that way get that way. Is this why you can use pool filter sand to grow plants (w/ the help of tabs). It's not necessarily that they HAVE the nutrients to start, they just (unlike inert substrates) have the capacity to store and release the nutrients that come into the substrate in a useful form to the roots. Q21: Am I understanding this correctly?

Q22: Do any of you use root tabs? Suggestions on brand?

Purrbox, in response to your suggestions to dump the sump, I was planning on hooking up my CO2 reactor into the flow of where the water is coming down the tank into the sump (is this info or outflow, when it comes from teh tank down into the sump tank?) I guess it's inflow to the filter and outflow to the tank, so it's both. Q23: This the best place to diffuse your co2 right? I also like the increased circulation and filtration. Do you think I should replace it with a cannister. Honestly I'd rather spend an extra 10 bucks on a re-fill every few months than buy another filter right now. The jump is getting pricey enough as it is.

Oh and An t-iasg, do continually have to add buffer, and if so how do you add it (pwc's)?