Ughhhhhhhh ph!!!!!!!

[DragonFish71]

So here's the problem. We have a 40g set up for GBRs and golds. They prefer lower a lower ph value. We have had many deaths in this tank and are seriously considering going for kribs instead. (Research shows they can take higher ph values) We have had our water tested at 3 different LFSs and one factor keeps coming up high, our ph. Everything else tests excellent. Yesterday we went to our 2 favorite LFSs and got 2 different answers with our question of "WTHeck is going on with the ph"????

So here's the background on the tank.

40g breeder: up since June
Heavily planted: swords, crypts, java ferns, spiral val, star grass, hair grass, water wisteria
black onyx sand mixed with activ-flora
3 pieces mopani DW
red and black slate (did a vinegar test, no fizzing)
Fluval 305 with peat and ceramic bio balls
3 air stones
1 female GBR, 7 otos


Water parameters:
Nitrates: between 0 and 5.0
Nitrites:0
Ammonia:0
ph:7.6 (ughhhhhhh!!!!!)
gh:25
kh:40
Tap water: 7.8

For nitrates, nitrites, ammonia and ph I use API master kit, for gh and kh I had to use API test strips since the master kit didn't come with those 2 tests. I know strips are not as reliable, but it's the best I can do for these 2 tests at the moment. Water changes are 25% once a week but thinking about moving that to every other week.


So back to what 1 LFS said about the ph: The black onyx sand is not ph neutral. It can very well be our problem along with the slate.

Second LFS: Black onyx sand is ph neutral and the slate should be fine. What is going on in your tank doesn't make sense. We use the same water supply and don't do anything to adjust for ph.


So my brilliant a$$ thought a moment, turned to my boyfriend and said "We have black onyx sand in the 10g along with black slate and the left over red slate in the 29g, so lets test them when we get home to try and figure out if black onyx sand and the 2 slates are ph neutral."


Here's what the results were:

10g black slate and black onyx sand, no DW, heavily planted, 2 otos, 2 corys, 3 guppies, 5 platys, 1 betta, 8 ghost shrimp, HOB filter rated for 20g. About a year old, substrate change to sand in June, mini-cycle done and over with. Weekly 25% WC

Ammonia:0
Nitrites:0
Nitrates: 0-5.0
ph:6.6
gh:between 0-25
kh:between 40-80


29g red slate, regular pet store gravel, UGF with power head, HOB rated for 30g, heavily planted, no DW, 2 air stones, heavily stocked with many different fish and inverts. Set up for a 1 1/2 years. Weekly 25% WC.

Ammonia:0
Nitrites:0
Nitrates:0-5.0
ph:6.4
Didn't check gh or kh.


So no real proof that the black onyx sand or the slate is the problem. All tanks are filled from the tap using Prime for dechlor. And all plants are dosed with Seachem Flourish.

Any ideas at all? We're so frustrated at this point that as I stated above, we are considering giving up on the rams which we really don't want to do.

We don't want to go with chemicals, RO/DI or CO2.

Also, please keep in mind I'm not a chemist so keep any replies in plain english

 

[fort384]

You could add some peat to the filter, or put some natural driftwood in the tank. Depending on the buffering capacity of your water, this may or may not have a huge effect.

It is very curious, the drastic pH differences between your tanks. Do you have anything else out of the ordinary in the tank that could be adding buffering capacity and or raising pH (i.e. rocks you don't have in the other tanks, seashells)?

 

[DragonFish71]

fort,

In the problem tank, the 40, we do have peat and DW. Please see above, it details exactly what is in each tank. But no, I do not use shells for decor in any tank but our 80g brackish. I did not test all our tanks, just the ones that have the same slate and or sand.

 

[jsoong]

The better question may be: Why is the pH so low in the 10 & 29.

You started out with pH of 7.8 in your tap water and a KH of 40-80, without CO2 or other additive, I am not sure why it should be in the 6's in the smaller tank.

Your 40 gal is the more normal of the 3. You have some peat & driftwood in there, so the pH drops a bit form the tap's ... just what you would expect. With what you start with, I am not sure if you can get to a low pH without a lot more work. However, you should be able to acclimatize the fish to the tap's pH without too much problem. <Someone here was able to breed discus in pH of 7.5+.>

To fill in some hole, can you do the pH & KH of your tap water "fresh", and after it sits out for 24 hours. It is possible that the tap water has a "volatile" base (something like Ca(OH)2 that the water co. added to prevent pipe corrosion), and the KH reading is in error.

 

[DragonFish71]

jsoong,

See why we're so frustrated? All the tanks done the same way and different ph levels.

We did try testing ph from the tap and ph from dechlor treated water that I keep around in jugs for topping off the tanks.

Tap: 7.8
Jug: 6.8

Ok, here's another tap test:
kh: 40
gh: 25

Keep in mind I have to use API strips for gh and kh until I can get the liquid tests.

 

[beglely]

I going to venture that the test from the jugs is wrong. Ive taken normal tap water, placed it in 2 liter bottles, sealed it off, and then tested it only to see a drop in the pH. However if you open it back up and test it after sitting in open air for a day or so, the pH is a much closer match to straight from the tap. I agree with jsoong in the fact that your smaller two tanks seem to be more of the anomoly. I would also not attribute your ram deaths to the pH. Rams are hard to keep and breed, and harder to keep alive. My first venture into rams resulted in all 4 dying after 2 months or so, and I have a pH around 6.8. It just happens. Im currently looking for another group to try with, but unless your willing to go through a lot of trial and error with them I would switch to kribs.

 

[DragonFish71]

Ughh!

Maybe we should turn switch the fish around then. Use the 29 for 2 pairs of rams instead of the 6 pairs we wanted in the 40. Or go the easy route, kribs. I tell ya, no matter how much planning and research you put into the perfect tank for a species, there's gotta be a monkeywrench thrown in the works. We've been going through the trial and error since Feb when we got our first pairs of GBRs and Golds. The golds spawned, the blues died (the female was egg bound, no idea with the male) After the golds hatched and turned to wigglers, the parents died for no apparent reason. I have lost track of how many we've gone through. Maybe kribs are the answer, but dang it, we really do love those rams.

The ph seems to really be the only logical conclusion for the deaths. I do know they are hard to keep alive, but after talking to others that have no problems keeping them, it's all we can come up with.

As I listed above, the tanks all have close to the same decor, with some variances, and ph is so drastically different. I don't use any chemicals other than Prime and Flourish unless I need to treat a tank for some illness. (Knock on wood it hasn't been a problem for months now, yay for QT tanks)

 

[jsoong]

I am going to hazard a guess that the water is limed. <ie. the water co added Ca(OH)2 to the water to raise pH.> that is about the only explanation for why the water would be 7.8 out of the tap & 6.8 sitting in a jug.

It would be helpful to check with your water co's water quality report to see what they've done with the water. <Mine post the report on the web, & it says water is pH adjusted if needed.> Also, try to take the pH of water that is not dechlor, but sitting out to air for 24 hrs & see what sort of number you get. <The KH of 40 does not go with the 6.8 pH in the jug either. It might be an error. If the KH is 40, the equilibrated pH should be 7.2 ish in air.>

Regardless, it still is strange to see your tank's pH so different. however, if your tank's pH is stable, it should not account for the fish's death, assuming that you do a slow drip acclimatization when you first get the fish. <Also, if your QT's pH is very different from the main, then you would need to drip acclimatize the fish from QT to main as well.

More head scratching .....

 

[DragonFish71]

When I acclimate I take about 2 hours doing the slow drip method for our FW fish. For our brackish 3 hours.


So just sit a cup of water out for 24 hours and test it? I'll set one out before I go to bed tonight then test it before bed tomorrow. See what happens.


I'm not sure what I should be looking for on here, but this is the link for our water.

http://www.ci.longmont.co.us/pwwu/water/documents/wqreport.pdf

 

[jsoong]

Your water may have been doctored ... Item 6 in page 2 says that they will add Na2CO3 or NaOH to adjust pH ..... If they used NaOH, that could account for the drop in pH after sitting out.

Unfortunately they quoted a wide range for TDS 24-220 with a GH of 8-27, you can have KH of anywhere from 0 to 200. According to this water report, your water can be either really soft, or super hard .... That is rather strange. Living also close to the Rocky mountains myself, I would expect our water is close to yours. Our water is always mod. hard (in the 150 range). We never have big swings like they are inferring.

Anyway, I think your results with just the water sitting out would be interesting.

 

[DragonFish71]

So we lost our last female GBR sometime during the day. I came home and went to test the ph and there she was.

ph btw is 7.2 now.


I think we're done with the rams. I can't see buying anymore to have them die off like this. I kinda feel like a murderess. *Grumbles*

 

[Etunes]

See as everyone said, as long as you acclimate correctly when introducing and if the ph stays stable you should have no problem. PH from what i have found rarely kills fish. I know rams are sensitiv but this is a massive die off. Is there any additional things that could stress the fish maybe? Is the tank in a diffrent place then the other tanks?

 

[bs6749]

Rams do perfectly fine in a pH range of 5.0-8.4 or more. From much personal experience I can tell you that rams will thrive and breed in a pH of 8.0 and a GH of 300+ ppm. Both my wild rams and domestics have bred in this numerous times with over 95% fertility. My discus and angels also live and spawn within the same parameters. Actually, they are being kept in a pH closer to 7.2 since I moved several months ago, but I can tell you for certain that pH isn't killing your fish. The reason that your rams are dying is because they are poor quality, most likely Asian bred. Those are hormone ridden and typically die within 6 months of brining them home from the LFS, if not months sooner. Start with good quality rams, do a 10-20% water change 2-3 times per week, and I guaranteed you that you will have healthy and happy rams.

 

[DragonFish71]

See as everyone said, as long as you acclimate correctly when introducing and if the ph stays stable you should have no problem. PH from what i have found rarely kills fish. I know rams are sensitiv but this is a massive die off. Is there any additional things that could stress the fish maybe? Is the tank in a diffrent place then the other tanks?

We have 3 tanks downstairs in our finished basement, their tank is one of them. The others are upstairs.

Because they are so sensitive I take longer with the acclimation than I do our other FW fish. The brackish, obviously, I take even longer with. I honestly don't know what else could be stressing them out. The dog doesn't come down here, she's afraid of stairs. My boyfriend is home during the day and he doesn't do anything but watch them (when there were some in there). He loves the rams as much as I do and he's not so happy that I've made the decision to stop with rams. But honestly, I can't figure it out. Unless it's like bs6749 said and the stock is for crap. We do buy them from 2 different places. Funny thing is, the ones we get at Petco live longer than the ones from our LFS. Weird!!

 

[DragonFish71]

Rams do perfectly fine in a pH range of 5.0-8.4 or more. From much personal experience I can tell you that rams will thrive and breed in a pH of 8.0 and a GH of 300+ ppm. Both my wild rams and domestics have bred in this numerous times with over 95% fertility. My discus and angels also live and spawn within the same parameters. Actually, they are being kept in a pH closer to 7.2 since I moved several months ago, but I can tell you for certain that pH isn't killing your fish. The reason that your rams are dying is because they are poor quality, most likely Asian bred. Those are hormone ridden and typically die within 6 months of brining them home from the LFS, if not months sooner. Start with good quality rams, do a 10-20% water change 2-3 times per week, and I guaranteed you that you will have healthy and happy rams.

How would I know the difference?

And with the WCs that often, won't that keep making the ph flux? Isn't a stable ph better than the fluxing? We've had no problem getting them to spawn, it's the keeping them alive thing that's the problem.

 

[Etunes]

Honestly i would look at buying straight from breeders. Home USA breeders tend to be real good. If you want to get some good rams check out here.

AquaBid.com - Your Aquatic Auction Website

There are some awsome breeders and the LFS usually just want the next sale. Even the good LFS have limited breeders to get fish from.

 

[bs6749]

If you can take some pictures of the rams I can tell you if they are the Asian form or not. They are typically stretched due to the growth hormones. They are much more elongated than the stockier European or even wild bloodlines.

If you get wigglers from them then they most likely aren't Asian bred because they are sterile most of the time as a result of the hormones. Petco won't buy from local breeders, they get their fish from fish farms. Most likely their rams all come from Asia.

 

[rkilling1]

Just my thoughts:

25% Water change every week in a tank that you are reducing the buffers/pH.

Seems like quite a change to the chemistry every week. I would honestly look at keeping the fish at the same pH as your tap water.

Adding materials to reduce the pH will slowely change it, but the PWC adds them back at a very fast rate.

Sudden changes to the tanks chemistry = a large amount of stress to the fish. And then add in that the fish are already on the sensitive side.

 

[DragonFish71]

If you can take some pictures of the rams I can tell you if they are the Asian form or not. They are typically stretched due to the growth hormones. They are much more elongated than the stockier European or even wild bloodlines.

If you get wigglers from them then they most likely aren't Asian bred because they are sterile most of the time as a result of the hormones. Petco won't buy from local breeders, they get their fish from fish farms. Most likely their rams all come from Asia.

We've had wigglers from all the pairs we've bought over the past few months from Petco and our LFS. Sadly none of them survive. Another LFS that we go to has some beautiful ones that are about full grown with all their colors. Hm, they didn't look elongated either. Maybe that's been part of the problem, the ones we've been getting are small, about an inch. Maybe we should look at the older ones.

 

[DragonFish71]

Just my thoughts:

25% Water change every week in a tank that you are reducing the buffers/pH.

Seems like quite a change to the chemistry every week. I would honestly look at keeping the fish at the same pH as your tap water.

Adding materials to reduce the pH will slowely change it, but the PWC adds them back at a very fast rate.

Sudden changes to the tanks chemistry = a large amount of stress to the fish. And then add in that the fish are already on the sensitive side.

Maybe do a 10% or 15% every other week?