ANOTHER return pump failed

[AdamHorton]

The problem:

I woke up this morning to find my return pump has failed again. Here's the chronology for my return pumps:

1. Mag Drive 12. Worked great for a year, then it stopped working.
1a. replaced the impeller. Worked for a couple of days, then quit again.
1b. replaced the impeller and cover. Worked for a couple of days, then quit again.

2. Mag Drive 12. I bought a new one, installed it from the box, it worked great for about a day and then quit.

3. Mag Drive 12. I exchanged the last one for another new one. Installed it, it worked great for less than two days, and then quit.

4. Quietone 6000. I exchanged the last one, and asked the LFS what they would recommend. They said this brand, since it's the one they use there, and it happens to be the same brand as my backup pump (below). I ordered one of these, but it seemed to provide the same amount of flow as the backup (half of what it was rated). I installed it anyways, and it worked for about a week. It quit this morning.

Backup. my backup pump is a Quietone 2200, rated for 600 gph. It doesn't give me nearly what I want, but it has worked and never failed every time these other pumps do.

I'm getting really frustrated with this situation. I've gone through a lot of trouble and I still can't get a decent return pump working that will stay working. I'm going to return this Quietone 6000 after work today and I don't know what I'm going to do for a return pump at this point. All I care about is that I have a return that will actually give me at least 1000 gph.

Possible causes (in alphabetical order):

ATO Switch: I currently run an auto-topoff switch, but I have it mounted so that it protects the pump. That is, if the water level in the refugium gets too low, it will shut the pump off so that it doesn't run dry. What sometimes happens is that evaporation makes the level get low enough that it trips the ATO to turn off the pump, but then gravity kicks in and there's an oscillating of on/off every second or so. At worst, this could happen for a few hours until I get home to top off the tank. I'd like to think that pumps are made to turn on and off, and with a couple of these pumps (the ones that lasted for a day or two), there wasn't much opportunity for this to happen. I don't think this is realistically a cause, but please correct me if I'm wrong. I've tried pumps with and without this setup and it doesn't seem to affect whether or not they work, but I haven't tried *every* pump in *every* possible configuration.

Battery Backup: I have an API battery backup/surge protector that I run all of the fish tank stuff on. I'm not happy with the battery backup part, I'm pretty sure that's shot, so at this point everything is just on the surge protector, but I've tried every configuration for these pumps I can think of: plugged into the battery backup, the surge protection only, and directly into the wall. The differences in configuration seem to make no difference in the performance of the pump.

Plumbing: I use flexible tubing to do from my return pump back to the display tank. There is a "T" branch, so there are two return nozzles that come from this one pump. The returns are about 5-6 feet above the return pump. I have a spongey-thing in front of the pump's intake to try and get out any large bits that might clog up the pump. This is the same plumbing (at least the same plumbing surrounding the return pump) I have used for most of the time I've had this tank, so it's worked with the first Mag Drive 12 pump for several months before it failed.

Here's a video of the most recent setup of the tank. The backup pump was installed when this video was taken. Maybe there's something else I'm missing...

What to do? As I mentioned, I'm pretty frustrated at this point. I like Mag Drive pumps, and I've heard that this is unusual for them to perform like this. I'm going to return the Quietone 6000 to the fish store where I bought it today after work, but at this point I have no idea what I'm going to do about a return pump. I'm getting tired of switching out pumps 2-3 times a week, and I'm sure the LFS is tired of me coming back and saying that their pumps don't work.

My main questions are: what return pump should I get at this point? Is there something wrong with my setup that is causing all of these pumps to fail?

I would appreciate any feedback or suggestions. I'm at a total loss right now.

 

[melosu58]

I just cant for the life of me understand that. I`ve used mag pumps for a long time and hardly ever had problems. Are you using the sponge filter. I cant get the video here at work.

 

[AdamHorton]

Yeah, it's the sponge filter that comes with the Mag 12 and attaches over the intake. I put it in front of the Quietones too but I doubt it helps that much...

 

[melosu58]

How much head pressure are we talking? As I said I cant see the vidoe.

 

[AdamHorton]

I'm not sure I know what else to tell you besides this: there's a "T" going from the pump to the two returns, and the returns are 5-6 feet above where the pump is...

I can't see videos at work either, but I can link to them

 

[melosu58]

That could be significant. I have my two pumps that are individually plumbed to their own return. I use a plastic hose to the return. That T could be a big player in the problem. Are you able to go to two return pumps and plumb each to it`s own return. Might want to wait on our General hardware and equipment discussion guru ccCAPT (Larry). He`s good at stuff like this.

 

[AdamHorton]

I'm *able* to use two return pumps the way you said. I was actually hoping to do that in the near future because it was suggested in another thread I made about this topic earlier in the process. I was hoping to have two working pumps before that happened.

I also suspected the underlying problem was something else since the pump with less flow is working fine, or is there some better reason for this?

 

[melosu58]

I`m thinking that the more pressure that is hitting the T with the more flow pump is binding up there compared to the less flow pump pressure hitting the T. I sent a PM to LArry. Hopefully he will tell us if I`m right or not.

 

[ccCapt]

Exactly what is going bad on the pumps? Which part is breaking?

When any of the pumps died, did you try taking it apart, soak it overnight in vinegar, drop the impeller back in (but not putting the cover back on) and plug it in?

Did they get real hot when running? If the motor burned out on all of them, I would says it's the ATO when it malfunctions and toggles the pump on/off.

 

[AdamHorton]

I can only guess as to which part is breaking: I'll tell you what I've done and what I know at this point:

The first pump (Mag Drive 12 #1, the one that I tried replacing the impeller and cover on) I tried soaking in vinegar at several times during the process, though I don't remember exactly when. That alone never got it working again -- it seemed like the only thing that would get that to work again was to take the impeller/cover off and put it back on. With that particular pump, I was sometimes able to get the pump to work, but I would turn it off and back on and it wouldn't. Sometimes it would seem like it would "try" for a while and quit, which made me believe impeller/cover was the problem, but after replacing as much as I did and not seeing it work for longer than a couple of days at a time, I decided to buy a new pump. I still have this pump.

The second Mag Drive 12 I tried soaking once in vinegar after it stopped working the first time, but I didn't take it apart (I was afraid of screwing up the impeller/cover at that point). I ran it for a little bit in the sink with a diluted vinegar solution, but I didn't see any change after doing that -- it wouldn't run even by itself in the tub I have for water changes with new SW.

The third Mag Drive 12 I took back immediately after it stopped working. I decided to try a different brand at this point.

The only one that got hot was this most recent one, the Quietone. I woke up this morning, took it out and put the backup in, gathered the box and the receipt, posted this, and went to work. If I burned out the motor, I don't know if I'm going to have much luck returning this one...

I've tried running the pumps with no cover (with impeller) once, on the first Mag 12. I don't believe I've ever had that not work with that pump, but it's been a while since I've tried that. When I get home tonight I can try that test again and see what happens: would there be any harm in doing that without water? I made a mess last time I did that (part of why I haven't done it much recently).

Hopefully that helps... let me know if I can tell you more. I'm mostly concerned with finding a setup that works, and before I go changing the plumbing to two pumps it would be ideal if I could know that I have two pumps that will work and nothing else will go wrong.

Is it possible that I'm doing more harm than good by trying to "protect" my return pump with that ATO? From what you said, it sounds like turning it off/on like that is worse than running it dry...

 

[ccCapt]

Take 1 of the pumps apart and just rinse it good in the sink. See if you can get a small brush to clean inside the impeller shaft too. Then just drop in the impeller and plug it in (out of the water is fine for a few secs). If the impeller starts to spin or rattle, you know it's not the motor and the problem is how the impeller is seated.

I think with the ATO possibly straining the motor, the pump can pull in tiny pieces of grit just enough to stop the impeller from spinning. I don't think head pressure has anything to do with it.

Like Mike, I've used Quiet One and Mag pumps for years with no issues.

 

[AdamHorton]

I'll give that a shot tonight with the first Mag 12 pump and let you know how it goes. Thanks for the help so far.

 

[AdamHorton]

All right, sorry I didn't get to the test until today -- I was having some "real life" issues with my "car"...

Anyways, I plugged in my old pump without the cover: it spun just fine, so I'm guessing the motor is still good. All of the parts are soaking in vinegar right now.

What are your thoughts? It would seem possible for me to get a working pump out of this? I've tried different impellers and covers and haven't had it consistently work, but maybe I'm doing that wrong, since all of the parts (including my brand new impeller/cover setup) seem to be working.

 

[ccCapt]

I would have to say if it works without the volute cover, when you put the cover on it's binding the impeller somehow. The cover on the Quiet One (at least on mine) 1/4 turns to lock in place. Maybe try that not locked in all the way. If you try it with a Mag (mine has the cover screwed on), maybe try it with the screws not tightened all the way down.

 

[AdamHorton]

All right, it's the Mag 12 that I have right now that has this issue, so hopefully I can get it on there in such a way that it's not all the way tight and it will start/stop reliably.

I think I'm going to run it now without the ATO mechanism. I'm guessing at this point it did more harm than good?

Thinking ahead a step: if I can get this Mag 12 to work reliably, at some point I'll probably want to change the plumbing so that I'm running both the Mag 12 and the Quietone that I'm using as my backup now. I don't know if this will be an issue at all, but since the Mag 12 is rated for about twice the gph as the Quietone, if I had one going to each corner of the tank on its own return, would that cause any problems with the tank with it being a lopsided flow? I don't have corals in there now, but after I move I want to start having corals.

 

[Raimond]

You have had too many failures to all be the pumps you tried. I want reiterate the ideas above.
My suggestion is to bypass your controller at a time you can monitor the pump(s). I have a Quietone 6000 and I have been using it for years with 3 feet of head. When I clean my pumps, once every 6 months, I use a lubricant on the impeller shaft but you should not need it out of the box.

Another possibly is there is something consistently getting into the pump and jamming/breaking the impeller.

When troubleshooting you need to eliminate everything that could be effecting the issue.

As you had the original pump for a year before any trouble then something has changed in your setup, not the pumps.

 

[corrado33]

Just for a different perspective... could it be the battery backup? I remember reading that those battery backups like to "simulate" AC power, when really they're just modified square waves. Electric motors don't like this. Computers are fine with it because they have their own power supply anyway and they're built to work with some variation of input.... stuff.

Meh, can't find the link I'm lookin for. Just search for battery backup on here, it's on the site somewhere.

So what I'm saying is, when you buy another pump, just plug it into the wall/surge strip and NOT the battery backup.

 

[AdamHorton]

I've decided that the battery backup I have is deficient in more ways than one, and corrado, what you're saying makes sense about they way it supplies power. I've been plugging the pumps into the surge protector only (no battery backup) since some time during the Mag 12 process (I don't know if I ever tried this particular pump on anything but the battery backup). I'm going to try my old Mag 12 tonight, probably running it in my spare SW can I use for water changes for a couple of hours to make sure it's OK before I install it on the tank.

Hopefully all will go well, but I'll update tonight regardless, unless for some reason I don't get to it.

 

[AdamHorton]

Well after a while and some experimenting, I was finally able to get my old Mag 12 to work again. As far as I can tell, the problem was where the impeller connected to the cover. I could get it going maybe once or twice, but after it stops, it had a hard time getting started again because it was such a tight fit. I just took my Dremel and carved out that part of the cover a little bit to make it a looser fit and I haven't had any problems since.

Thanks for the help, everybody. I'll more than likely be changing the plumbing at some point to incorporate two return pumps, and at that same time I'll probably be switching from the flexible pipe to PVC. There will be pictures at that point, though I don't know when that will be.