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Old 03-05-2007, 08:24 PM   #21
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I was looking into one similar to that one Bill but I can't seem to find them locally. It'll have to be something I order online. If it sits on the substrate, will I have issues since it's a sand substrate? James looked again for me today but he didn't find one. I'm going to hit up some more mom and pop stores tomorrow praying that I find one. It doesn't seem to be a normal stock item. So far the AC with the sponge over the input is working great. I haven't seen one stuck to it yet. I have tons of little wigglers. Here's some pics.

My makeshift temporary Sponge filter:


One shot of the wigglers:


Another:


The ones on the substrate:


When should I remove the white eggs? Should I wait until they wigglers have completly hatched? There are some on the substrate next to the ones that are wiggling. I certainly don't want to suck out a live one.

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Old 03-05-2007, 08:33 PM   #22
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They are looking great. I am so happy for you.
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:45 PM   #23
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Congrats, they look great.
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Old 03-05-2007, 10:21 PM   #24
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Based on the pic, you can remove them immediately. It doesn't appear that it would harm the wigglers.

Congrats, the wigglers look cute.
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:31 AM   #25
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Thanks everyone! Any comment regarding the sponge filter sitting on a sand substrate? When I see sponge filters they are normally in a bare bottom tank.
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:06 PM   #26
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I don't know if a sponge filter would be a problem in a sandy tank. I would think not as the sand should not be able to pass through the sponge.
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Old 03-06-2007, 08:27 PM   #27
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I am currenly using a sponge filter in my grow out tank with GBR fry and I have some PFS in there and no problems so far. Before the sponge filter I had a HOB filter (put a sponge over intake when fry were in tank) in the 10 gallon tank that came with the kit that I purchased and I had a large 6' airstone in there for circulation. Previous attempts of raising fry with that setup were unsuccessful. I think there was too much current and not enough plants and places to hide. With the sponge filter there is a lot less current and I even notice some of the wigglers trying to feed right off of the sponge. A sponge filter is a MUST for a fry tank as I have learned. I would suggest putting some sort of moss in the tank so that the wigglers can hide in that and they will pick out microorganisms to eat as well. This is also a useful thing to have with fry.
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:53 PM   #28
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I unplugged one of the filters as todays attempt at finding a sponge filter was unsuccesful. I wasn't sure on the design of the sponge filter, if it had an impeller and similar design as a hob. Sand+impeller=bad issues. I'm really thinking that I'm going to have to order online. Right now I have an AC on the right side of the tank on the back wall. The fry are on the left side, no where near the current. I'm hoping this will work until I can get ahold of a sponge filter.

Based on Bill's timeline I should start feeding Friday. Are you sure that is ok to wait that long? I just don't want these guys to starve. There are so many that have survived this far. I can't even count them all. There are at least 30 or 40 on the substrate and another 15 or 20 still hovering on the mag float. I want to take out the mag float so I can get the white eggs off of it but there are some that are hovering close to it, almost like it's a safety net for them. How do I go about removing the white eggs without sucking up the fry (i use a python). I'm used to African fry that are MUCH bigger than these small angel wigglers. They are easy to work with in regards to a set up. HOBs always work fine with them, but they are also 4x larger than these angels.

I appreciate everyone's help. This is new territory for me. I never thought it would be possible for ANY of my community fish to spawn due to my liquid rock water with an 8.8 pH. I can handle the African fry since we've been breeding them for over 2 years.
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Old 03-06-2007, 11:07 PM   #29
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Feed them once they start to swim. Egg yolk, newly hatched brine shrimp. Frequent water changes and they should do ok for you.

A sponge filter just works with a air pump no moving parts that why it works so well. Sand wont be a problem.

Once the little guys start to swim you can remove the mag float.
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Old 03-07-2007, 09:39 AM   #30
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Thanks Rich. James and I have one last location to check tonight. If they don't have a sponge filter, it looks like I'm going to have to order one online. I'm also going to pick up some frozen baby brine shrimp. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that tonights trip is succesful.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:06 AM   #31
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www.jehmco.com This is where I buy my sponge filters, veggie wafers, and lots of other stuff. Very inexpensive.

I wouldn't worry about removing anything until all the wigglers are detached. I would also keep the tank as barren as possible. No plants or anything at this point.

The time to begin feeding is when they are actually free swimming. While they are just lying on the bottom, they are are still absorbing nutrition from the yolk sacs.

Here's a pic of free swimming angel fry. Thye're very tiny
Attached Images
File Type: jpg angel_family_003_556.jpg (61.4 KB, 29 views)
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Old 03-07-2007, 12:09 PM   #32
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Thanks Brian. I do have a small carpet grass type plastic plant that I was going to add to the tank to provide some shelter for them, but I'll wait on that. If I can't find a sponge filter at this last store I'll order from that link. Thanks!
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Old 03-07-2007, 01:15 PM   #33
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I was wondering why no plants should be added right now...could anyone tell me why? I thought plants would be good because they would help provide microorganisms to the fry, give them a hiding spot, and would help to eliminate waste produce by the overfeeding that is likely to occur? Egg yolk, when I have added it to the tank before, clouded the water and most likely changed the water params. What is the reason for not adding live plants?

Also, shouldn't feeding be started BEFORE the yolk sacs are completely gone? I have heard this on several occasions, and it is even recommended on the back of the Hikari First Bites package, not that they know everything.
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Old 03-07-2007, 02:57 PM   #34
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Good questions bs6749. Plants don't provide anything for fry except a place to hide from predators. There will always be fry deaths and it's easier to keep the tank clean without plants.

I see no reason to feed fry before they are mobile enough to find the food. Why would one feed fry that don't have the ability to eat?
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Old 03-07-2007, 03:34 PM   #35
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I am looking at it like this: If I use RO or nearly pure water in a grow out tank there will be very little in the way of wastes to harm the fry. I believe that adding seeded material such as pool filter sand and even plants is beneficial to a grow out tank to reduce the minimal wastes that will add up from fry deaths and fry waste and feeding. When I say plants I am basically referring to anything that the fry may be able to hide in and feed off of such as java moss, which I added to my grow out tank recently with my GBR's. Without trying to hijack this thread, let me just state the following that has happened with my fry experience...

I have tried several times (unsuccessfully) to raise GBR's in a grow out tank. I had no seeded material in the tank either time. On one occasion I did have some pool filter sand but it was new from the bag and it was rinsed well. I tried floating plants but that didn't help the survival rate one bit. None of the fry lasted more than 4 days or so after they were free swimming. I think they starved even though they were being fed. I think maybe the food was too large and they couldn't eat it. That is when I did some looking around and people were suggesting that the fre may first need to eat microorganisms before they are large enough to eat other stuff. They suggested plants (mosses and such that wre full of little critters) so I tried this recently and the fry went to the moss and seemed to be picking stuff off of it and eating well. I will see how things are when I get home tonight, as I have been busy at work the past couple of days and haven't been able to check up on them since then. I understand what you are saying about having a bare bottom for the tank in order to keep it clean but how much waste can fry actually produce. Not only that but floating plants would take care of it. Just a thought.
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:22 PM   #36
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I have successfully kept angelfish fry without feeding until free swimming. I know that BrianNY has bred many egg layers. The water gets polluted rather quickly in fry tanks. That was something I had more difficulty with, keeping up with necessary water changes.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:16 PM   #37
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Real plants are far and few between around here. I can't even find java ferns. If I add plants it will be fake ones. I finally found the sponge filter today. It was the last store that I could possibly think of in the area. Well, PetsCo had one but it had a rating of 170 gph. A little high for a 10 gal tank. Plus, it was just like my makeshift hob filter.

I was also able to get a divider. While I was there I got two of the sponge filters. I am going to divide the tank in half, put one on each side, and house the new Acei fry that the mother hasn't spit yet in the other half. It's only temporary because they will be far too big to house in just 5 gal for very long. They will be moved to a 29 gal tank but that isn't suitable for African juvis. We are in the process of aquiring a 55 so they will ultimately go in the 55 for grow out.

We just got home and it's 9:15 so all I am going to do tonight is install the one sponge filter. Tomorrow night I'm going to put in the divider, move all of the angel fry to one side and install the other sponge filter. Then transfer the media from the ACs into one of the canisters. Those fry are becoming more and more mobile everytime I see them.

I am going to get a turkey baster tomorrow to move the fry from one side to the other. Is that safe? After I transfer the fry I am going to start sucking out some of the white eggs. I figure that will be find since I can't do any harm to unfertilized eggs.

Any comments?

::Edit:: Some of them are already free swimming. I'd say maybe 10 or 15. Should I go ahead and start feeding them? The turkey baster worked GREAT for sucking out the eggs. I have the divider in place already. That was a pain, but hopefully it will keep the Acei and Angels seperated.
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Old 03-09-2007, 07:35 AM   #38
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I fed last nigt and again this morning. I'd say 95% of them are free swimming. There are a few that are hoping across the substrate, but most are free swimming.

I also found out that my camera can take video. I'm a little excited over that so I took a short video of the fry free swimming.

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Old 03-09-2007, 10:34 AM   #39
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That is just great Fishy. I hope they do great for you.
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Old 03-09-2007, 11:40 AM   #40
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That's a neat video! They're much faster than I would have expected.
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