Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[Andy Sager]

The best laid plans......
So, I have been trying to prevent the fish from spawning by keeping slates out of the tanks. This has worked somewhat but today was the ultimate. My old Koi/ GM pair was busting at the seams so they used the glass. Did they use the glass in front of the pretty plants on the back ground? NO. The glass in front of the nice blue wall I painted for them to really look nice in front of? NO. Tonight, when I went to feed them, this pair was hanging around the back of the tank in the bottom corner. Yep, THAT'S where they decided to spawn. On the bottom. Goes to show you, we can plan all we want but when the fish want something, they get it whatever way they can.


Happy Valentine's Day

 

[Andy Sager]

Hmm...think you should introduce them to the reading pair so they can see where they *should* lay eggs lol

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LOL Good idea. I would need to move one of the pairs so they are closer together but it might be worth it. You've heard of " Monkey See, Monkey Do", we'll have to change that to "Fishy see, Fishy do."

Don't know how you do it Andy, I would be shedding all my hair by now. Glad things are going well for you

The truth is it's the system. It works and is easy, which is why it works. I may jokingly write some interesting observations about these fish but they are really meant as learning tools for you all. In actuality tho, nothing that has happened with these new fish is something I have not experienced before. This is fish breeding. Once you really understand the WHATs and WHYs of a specie, the rest makes sense. No hair pulling, no guessing, no trying to figure out what happened. Fish breed because certain conditions were met. You usually don;t see fish in bad conditions breed. This is how I know things are going okay. They are breeding like rabbits.

Thank you both for your comments.

 

[Hobbiest]

My pair still breed like jack rabbits that is why I put them back in community tank. The hard part is getting them not to breed! I have a 65 planted aquarium and I just ripped up half my plants and rearranged my entire tank just to try to make them uncomfortable enough not to breed. I love the fish they are gorgeous, I hate the chaos they create in my tank. May be finding a home for my marbled breeding pair and just keep my veil tail zebra that I've had for so long. TOTALLY understand all you have taught these fish are not community fish and if you don't have the space or the avenue to sell don't keep these beautiful fish! Still love to follow your thread though

 

[Andy Sager]

My pair still breed like jack rabbits that is why I put them back in community tank. The hard part is getting them not to breed! I have a 65 planted aquarium and I just ripped up half my plants and rearranged my entire tank just to try to make them uncomfortable enough not to breed. I love the fish they are gorgeous, I hate the chaos they create in my tank. May be finding a home for my marbled breeding pair and just keep my veil tail zebra that I've had for so long. TOTALLY understand all you have taught these fish are not community fish and if you don't have the space or the avenue to sell don't keep these beautiful fish! Still love to follow your thread though

Breeding pairs can be sold or traded for some good money depending on your area so that may be a good option for you.
I don;t believe I said you shouldn't have Angelfish in a community tank but that you shouldn't keep "breeding Angels" in a community tank. The best way I know to have multiple Angels in a community tank is to have a single gender only ( I prefer males only so there is no chance of any egglaying) group of Angels. They will have their own little pecking order but will not be as aggressive as a breeding Angel would be. This means either removing any females from the tank as they mature (if you grow them up from small) or buying larger Angels to start with and looking for known male traits if the sex is uncertain. With the right community, Angels can fit in quite well. In the wrong community, they usually eat the other fish.

 

[Hobbiest]

I stand corrected, but in the end that is what I truly meant. It's the breeding pair I am ready to get out of my community tank not my female zebra. There is no way to really sex these fish when they are young and I do think people should know what they are getting into before they start. There is also the problem of same sex pairs that also tend to happen and when it does it can cause the same amount of trouble as a normal pair. When I first started that is what happened with my zebra she paired off with another female. I didn't mean to say or imply that you said everything I've learned, but I am giving you credit for a lot of it. All I really meant was I Got It! My fish are breeding like jackrabbits now and it is harder to stop them from breeding than to breed them, that's the easy part. That you did tell me when I first started breeding my marbled pair

 

[Andy Sager]

I stand corrected, but in the end that is what I truly meant. It's the breeding pair I am ready to get out of my community tank not my female zebra. There is no way to really sex these fish when they are young and I do think people should know what they are getting into before they start. There is also the problem of same sex pairs that also tend to happen and when it does it can cause the same amount of trouble as a normal pair. When I first started that is what happened with my zebra she paired off with another female. I didn't mean to say or imply that you said everything I've learned, but I am giving you credit for a lot of it. All I really meant was I Got It! My fish are breeding like jackrabbits now and it is harder to stop them from breeding than to breed them, that's the easy part. That you did tell me when I first started breeding my marbled pair

Understood. Not a problem Just clarifying. As I said, with gender only schools, I prefer males for exactly that reason. In fact, my very first ever breeding pair of Angelfish, back in 196-mumble mumble , were 2 females. HUGE amount of eggs and I got really excited since I knew what was coming, thanks to my Mentor, only to have them all turn white Then when he came to the house to see them, he told me they were both females. The only saving grace to that whole thing was the other 10 fish all turned into male/female pairs. So my Mentor was 10 out of 12 and these fish were only dime/nickle size when I got them from him. Not bad eh? HE, had the touch. I am just a little touched. lol I still need them a little bigger before I can start sexing them.
If you were closer, I'd take your marble pair but you are too far and I don;t like to ship large breeders. As I said previously you should be able to get a better price for them than if they were just 2 large fish. Good luck with that. Removing them is really the best thing to do for the whole community.

 

[Mr Fisher]

Understood. Not a problem Just clarifying. As I said, with gender only schools, I prefer males for exactly that reason. In fact, my very first ever breeding pair of Angelfish, back in 196-mumble mumble , were 2 females. HUGE amount of eggs and I got really excited since I knew what was coming, thanks to my Mentor, only to have them all turn white Then when he came to the house to see them, he told me they were both females. The only saving grace to that whole thing was the other 10 fish all turned into male/female pairs. So my Mentor was 10 out of 12 and these fish were only dime/nickle size when I got them from him. Not bad eh? HE, had the touch. I am just a little touched. lol I still need them a little bigger before I can start sexing them.
If you were closer, I'd take your marble pair but you are too far and I don;t like to ship large breeders. As I said previously you should be able to get a better price for them than if they were just 2 large fish. Good luck with that. Removing them is really the best thing to do for the whole community.

Oh you have the touch I remember you sexing this lady. She had her second spawn tonight

You're an awesome teacher Andy

 

[Andy Sager]

Congrats. The bigger ones ARE a little easier to get lucky with. That's a nice spawn. Hope something good comes from it.

It's funny, tonight, while I was feeding the fish, I really started looking at the 1/2 blacks. The supposed pair, I'm starting to think were 2 males and now, the big one, ( a supposed male) that I put in with the Silver female ( and beat her up), I'm starting to think is a female although she is not filling up with eggs in a visual manor. And now, the supposed female, that I put in with the Black male, is really getting picked on by that male. And, the little bit of the tube that's exposed looks more pointed than blunt which would explain why the Black male, of all fish, is even picking on it. Every male that I know was a male has picked on that poor fish. At least I know, or I think I know , that the one with the Zebra is a male because I don;t recall seeing it laying eggs, just swimming up the slate behind the Zebra. So I'm thinking it might be time to set up one of the vats and put all the "singles" in there and let them show their real "colors". I presently seem to not be doing such a great job with that. lol Oh well, can't be right 100% of the time. lol

I'll keep you all posted.

 

[Andy Sager]

Oh you have the touch I remember you sexing this lady. She had her second spawn tonight

You're an awesome teacher Andy

Sorry, didn't see this last bit when I commented yesterday so, Thank you I hope I have shed some brighter light on the subject of keeping Angelfish.

 

[Andy Sager]

So today was water change day and of course something happened. My F1s from the silver veil ( in my avatar) / gold marble pair are old enough now to start pairing off but not as large as I'd like them to be. These F1s are the "Barred Marble" type. There are about 4 nice regular finned fish and about 5 veiltail fish all in a grow out tank together. I was hoping to pair up the straight silvers from them with a veiltail so that I could get some Silver veils going as well as barred marbles with their veiled siblings to get Barred marble veils as well. So, this afternoon I did the water change and tonight I see the nicest of the regular finned Barred Marble with her tube out. And who did she pick as a mate? The smallest of the regular finned silvers. It's the Murphy's Law of fish keeping. lol And of course, even if they spawn tomorrow, I won;t be here to see if they hatch out as I need to go away for about 6 days so I know there is nothing I can do for the fry IF they hatch. Just another part of fish breeding. You never know when something is going to happen. I'm definitely going to be getting a helper this time because I will not be locked to the hatchery. I need vacations every now and again. lol

 

[fish wrangler]

How do you plan on selling the fish? LFS?

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[Andy Sager]

How do you plan on selling the fish? LFS?

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Actually, my notebook has the info of spawn dates, pair's origination, hatch temps and free swimming timeframes, genetics ( if known) and, because I do make my own pairs, a lot of notes like "Male from pair # X and female from pair # Y ( see pages 42 & 27, etc.) lol Even I can;t keep track of everything in my head. For example, today's spawn from my F1 Barred marble/ Silver is actually by siblings with the Silver veil gene as well as the marble gene, NOT to be confused with the silver veils that came from a Zebra Veil/ Gold Angel pair that produced silver veils while the silver veil pair produced veil and straight fish but not silver veils. See what I mean? And don't forget about Zebra lace/ Black pair which was with the single male black however, he has since died BUT I do have the male from the original black pair but the female has since died HOWEVER, the male from the pair is the brother of the single male because all the black angels I got are all the offspring from 1 pair of Black Angels that my buddy is breeding. So, should I breed the F1s from the Zebra Lace/ Black pair to the F1s of the Black/ Silver pair, I would not be getting that large a genetic pool as the 2 males are both from the same parents and carry the same genes. WHEW!!!! That was a mouthful.

As for selling them, I have old customers wanting my fish, new LFS wanting them and a wholesaler also wanting them. There just aren;t a lot of good Angels available in FL so where to get rid of them is not as hard as how to get them.

 

[Andy Sager]

Ok now that my head is killing me give me a little bit to TRY and wrap my head around everything.

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What can I say, breeding fish is not for the timid.

JK Grab an ice pack for your head.

 

[Andy Sager]

Ok, so here's today's brain drain.... The Zebra Lace and 1/2 Black spawned again today. I saw the first 2 strings of eggs and the 1/2 black was just going behind her and eating them. Then she would push and shove him out of the way and lay another string ( which he would eat.) Then, he finally managed to remember why he was in the tank and instead of eating them, he started fertilizing them. BUT, every time he tried to fertilize while the female wasn't laying, she would push him off then he would nip at her and push at her. So some of the eggs were fertilized and who knows about the rest. THEN, in the middle of all this, the 2 would start fighting then both go to the slate and run lines. It was like they were having an argument and make up sex all at the same time. I remember saying, out loud, "these are the worst pair of fish I have ever seen. No consistency to their behavior." So I waited until they were done and pulled the slate. Even tho I will probably lose them, hopefully I will see some dead fry in the tank so know they are at least fertile. The big question on fertility is the male either is quick on the redraw of his tube or he has a tiny tube and might be having "tube envy" of the female ( her's is larger by a long shot.) I could barely see it when I pulled the eggs.
So forget about aspirin or ice for this headache, this calls for a stiff drink.

I also pulled the barred marble spawn yesterday just to hopefully see if they are a fertile pair. So after 24 hours, only 1 white egg. Considering the water should be a little cooler while I am gone, maybe, they will be slower to hatch and free swim so I might get something from it after all.

 

[fish wrangler]

The only ones I could pick out on a tank are the black angels and the koi angels...otherwise it's all guessing for me.

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[Andy Sager]

The only ones I could pick out on a tank are the black angels and the koi angels...otherwise it's all guessing for me.

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Check out this page ( The Angelfish Society )and go to the phenotype library pages under " About Angels" tab. Should show you all the types.

 

[Andy Sager]

I returned last night from a week long trip only to find that both fertility tests were a success!! 1/2 Black with Zebra, fry are free swimming, new F1 pair, wigglers on the slate. I also put the Silver female back with the Black male and there is a spawn on the slate.

Time to go change water.

 

[Mr Fisher]

I returned last night from a week long trip only to find that both fertility tests were a success!! 1/2 Black with Zebra, fry are free swimming, new F1 pair, wigglers on the slate. I also put the Silver female back with the Black male and there is a spawn on the slate.

Time to go change water.

Awesome!

 

[Andy Sager]

Just a quick progress report:
Much to my surprise, the black/ silver spawn is alive and well and being raised by the parents. I will move them once they become free swimming because Mom & Dad have them wiggling on a rock in a bad position to get to. I'm banking on them clustering at night so I will siphon into the tank directly below the main tank.
The first spawn from the F1s hatched but only a couple of the fry became free swimming. It may have been from the temp being a little cooler than I like but not much I can do about it now. But I now know 2 fertile fish to try and make pairs out of.
The 1/2 black- Zebra lace fry are going strong still. Can't wait to see what they look like when they get older.
That's it for now.......

 

[livefishguy124]

what is the best way to get a pair that's not a proven breeding pair?