Rookie mistake. Advice appreciated

[Rivercats]

You're tank will never cycle if you keep changing your water when change the water that brings down the ammonia, ammonia needs to rise and go down on its own before the nitrites start to go up. Then the ammonia will go away and you're nitrite will rise and then come back down then your nitrates start to rise this is called cycling.

When your doing a fish in cycling you have to do WC's as needed to keep ammonia and nitrites at levels of .25ppm or lower. This is done for the health and safety of the fish. The tank will indeed cycle but it often takes much longer than a fishless cycle.

In a fishless cycle then you do dose ammonia levels from 2-4ppm so the cycling occurs and you don't do WC's unless ammonia or nitrites get too high which can cause cycling to stall.

Adding seeded media from another persons filter can speed a cycle just as adding a lot of fast growing plants will help speed a cycle.

 

[Fishperson]

The same way you can tell the difference between a woman and a man the male has a little pentacle (spelling) on his bottom side the female doesn't.

I believe it is a gonopodium.

 

[owenhp]

Yes, that is what it is called

 

[rjs2115]

Male vs. Female Platy:

Thanks for that picture! That will definitely help.
Much more helpful than the "same as a man and woman" explanation.

 

[rjs2115]

Thanks for all the input everyone. Very much appreciated.

 

[owenhp]

I aways use fish I have never done a fish less cycle cause you can get a false start. When doing my marine tank we didn't do any water changes until the tank cycled. Yes in my freshwater I would do weekly changes of 10%.

 

[owenhp]

It Is the nitrates that you what to feed the tank. Not ammonia.

 

[Rivercats]

I aways use fish I have never done a fish less cycle cause you can get a false start. When doing my marine tank we didn't do any water changes until the tank cycled. Yes in my freshwater I would do weekly changes of 10%.

When using pure ammonia you don't get a false start. It's a proven method that works quite well.

When doing a fish in cycle doing a weekly 10% is not enough as levels of ammonia and nitrites get too high for the health and safety of the fish.

 

[Rivercats]

It Is the nitrates that you what to feed the tank. Not ammonia.

You do not "cycle" a tank with nitrates. Cycling starts with ammonia, then once Nitrosomonas bacteria builds up, your tank starts showing nitrite readings. Once Nitrobacter bacteria builds up it converts nitrites to nitrates. Once you have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites with readable levels of nitrates over 20ppm your tank is cycled. During the entire time of fishless cycling you dose your tank with ammonia which is your bacteria's base food source.

 

[owenhp]

Then how do you expect the tank to cycle. I was working with a marine biologist when I was learning. According to him the use of fish was the best way you use a hardy fish. You want the ammonia to spike and the nitrites to go up as they go up the ammonia comes down and then the nitrites will spike and the nitrates goes up and the nitrites goes down it is the nitrates that feeds your live Plants.

 

[Rivercats]

I'd have to write a book so read these articles on fish in and fishless cycling and maybe you'll understand. I've been in the hobby at a very serious level for over 30 years and while fishless cycling wasn't used many years ago it has been used for a very long time. In fishless cycling your use ammonia as your food sources. In fish in cycling you use the ammonia that fish produce BUT nowadays you do WC's to keep the levels (ammonia and nitite) low so fish do not suffer from ammonia and or nitrite poisoning. It's not like the old days when we added fish and they and the tank cycled and the fish had to endure high levels of ammonia and nitrite during the process. Hopefully these articles from the AA sticky notes will help you understand both processes.

I just learned about cycling but I already have fish. What now?! - Aquarium Advice

Tips and Tricks For Your Fastest Fishless Cycle! - Aquarium Advice

The (almost) Complete Guide and FAQ to Fishless Cycling - Aquarium Advice

There is also a great article on here somewhere that Jeta Jockey wrote "Welcome to the dark side of cycling" or something like that. Or do some online research.

 

[Caliban07]

I think the number of water changes required during a fish in cycle depends on the size of the tank, number and type of fish used. But of course you should always be monitoring parameters anyway and feeding responsibly.

I never saw my ammonia go above 0.25ppm and I think I changed the water twice. I never even seen nitrites appear.

If I was ever to do a fishless cycle, I would try to mimic a fish in cycle by dosing small amounts of ammonia say 0.5ppm throughout the day and slowly work my way up in increments of 0.5ppm to 4ppm. That's how I would go about it anyway.

 

[owenhp]

I know that that is what I was saying. You can do fishless cycling if you want. I have ran more tanks from a 5 to 150 gallons. I have raised fish for pet shops. I understand the whole process. That is what I was trying to say. But you kept on with the ammonia like that is what you needed. Ammonia and nitrites is what kills the fish but it takes that cycle to build up the bacteria.

 

[owenhp]

I understand both processes when I cycled my marine tank the ammonia went up the highest I am saw it was 20ppm and the next time I checked it was 0 but my nitrites had started to rise. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't reach above. 25ppm.

 

[owenhp]

It seems you and I have been in the hobby about the same time.

 

[Rivercats]

I think the number of water changes required during a fish in cycle depends on the size of the tank, number and type of fish used. But of course you should always be monitoring parameters anyway and feeding responsibly.

I never saw my ammonia go above 0.25ppm and I think I changed the water twice. I never even seen nitrites appear.

If I was ever to do a fishless cycle, I would try to mimic a fish in cycle by dosing small amounts of ammonia say 0.5ppm throughout the day and slowly work my way up in increments of 0.5ppm to 4ppm. That's how I would go about it anyway.

Not all fish in cycles go that easy. Often they get high reading of ammonia and nitrites in which WC's are needed more often. Each individuals fish in cycling is unique unto itself since everyone has different size tanks, use different types and amounts of fish. But the principle of fish in cycling is the same. You do a WC any time ammonia or nitrites rise above .25ppm to protect the fish's health. Read any fish in cycle article and it tells you this.

And sure if you have a large tank and add a few small fish then those fish aren't going to produce much ammonia and you'll never see high numbers in ammonia or nitrites. So what size tank was it and what was you initial stock? As you said it depends on tank size, the number of fish used, and their size.

As for a fishless cycle... Even if you did a fishless cycle adding small amounts of ammonia through the day you still end up with adding 4ppm by the end of the day.

 

[Rivercats]

I know that that is what I was saying. You can do fishless cycling if you want. I have ran more tanks from a 5 to 150 gallons. I have raised fish for pet shops. I understand the whole process. That is what I was trying to say. But you kept on with the ammonia like that is what you needed. Ammonia and nitrites is what kills the fish but it takes that cycle to build up the bacteria.

Go back and read your post.... You said "It Is the nitrates that you what to feed the tank. Not ammonia." That is what started the ammonia issues. Which if you read what I said ammonia whether it's a fish in or fishless cycle is the base "food" as you call it to begin the cycling process. Fish produce ammonia that starts the cycle... pure bottled ammonia starts the cycle in a fishless.

When I explain the process you ask me how is the tank suppose to cycle. You just repeated what I originally wrote in less technically terms.

What you don't seem to want to believe is that nowadays when doing a fish in cycle you do WC's to keep ammonia and nitrite levels no higher than .25ppm. If that means doing daily WC's then you do them. This also means you should check these levels daily while doing a fish in cycle. This isn't rocket science and this is going round and round.

 

[Rivercats]

I understand both processes when I cycled my marine tank the ammonia went up the highest I am saw it was 20ppm and the next time I checked it was 0 but my nitrites had started to rise. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't reach above. 25ppm.

This is about doing daily readings of nitrites and ammonia and not letting them rise above .25ppm by doing WC's as needed in order to not harm your fish from high ammonia or nitrite poisoning.

With fish in the tank you shouldn't let ammonia and nitrites go to their highest as it's bad for fish.

 

[jlk]

It Is the nitrates that you what to feed the tank. Not ammonia.

Nitrates do not 'feed' a tank or a cycle. Ammonia, whether its produced by fish or is provided by a different source (bottled ammonium hydroxide, raw shrimp, fish food, etc), is the food source for bacterial growth and propagation. Nitrate is the end product of the nitrogen cycle in our fw tanks.

Fish-in, water changes are the key to responsibly and safely seeing any aquatic creature through the process. Keeping ammonia and nitrite levels low (.25ppm or preferably less) during the process assures that our aquatic creatures will be not negatively affected by these toxins. The health and well being of the aquatic creatures in our care should be our main priority regardless of the situation.

 

[Caliban07]

Not all fish in cycles go that easy. Often they get high reading of ammonia and nitrites in which WC's are needed more often. Each individuals fish in cycling is unique unto itself since everyone has different size tanks, use different types and amounts of fish. But the principle of fish in cycling is the same. You do a WC any time ammonia or nitrites rise above .25ppm to protect the fish's health. Read any fish in cycle article and it tells you this. And sure if you have a large tank and add a few small fish then those fish aren't going to produce much ammonia and you'll never see high numbers in ammonia or nitrites. So what size tank was it and what was you initial stock? As you said it depends on tank size, the number of fish used, and their size. As for a fishless cycle... Even if you did a fishless cycle adding small amounts of ammonia through the day you still end up with adding 4ppm by the end of the day.

I couldn't agree more that the principle is the same and you should always change water when ammonia reaches or exceeds 0.25ppm.

My point was that the need for water changes varies depending on the factors we discussed. I used 4 small harlequin rasbora to cycle a 20 gallon. I waited till after them bacteria bloom had settled (3-4 days)

IMO I think you would have to make quite a few errors to see high levels of ammonia building up during a fishless cycle. Of course this happens as we all have to learn. Wow, I never even knew about the nitrogen cycle on my first tank.

Even though my ammonia never went over 0.25ppm I still changed my water just to freshen things up and replenish beneficial elements and organics.