Sudden Death of Large Healthy Orandas

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SandyCheeks

Aquarium Advice Freak
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
216
Location
Rural Nevada, USA
Tank size 90 gal, 4 Orandas and 2 shibunkins Equipment: 306 Fluval canister, 406 Fluval canister, large HOB filter, large air bubblers, large lava rocks. Annubias plants. ammonia 0. Nitrites 0, nitrates 20, ph 8.0, gh 3, kh 6, TDS 300-400.

Help please. I had 3 large orandas and a male and female shubunkin, ages 5 to 3. All were healthy, active, eating well, the orandas had huge wens. Yesterday morning I woke up to find 2 floating dead, 2 barely breathing. The largest male shubunkin and the smallest orandas are seemingly fine. It's truly sad to see such large beautiful fish that I've had for years floating dead. why they would all suddenly die with no signs of anything being wrong?

No changes to food, no new medication, no new fish added. I was out of prime, so used Tetra Aquasafe declorinator during the weekly water change on Sunday. New additions to the tank were a large fake rock decoration and an underwater blue light string attached to a bendable air bubbler. The 30 gal tropical tank next to this tank received 4 new apple snails and a baby albino pleco 3 weeks ago. We don't share any of the tools between tanks, but we do share the siphon used to clean the tanks.

After removing the dead fish, the ammonia was .25 and the nitrate was 1.0 and the nitrate was 20. However I believe this spike could have been from two large dead fish floating in the tank all night. I'm just saying this because the tank has been cycled since it was set up five years ago. Out of my 7 tanks, t his Tank is always so dependable, it maintains through ph changes, it even stayed cycled when I accidentally left the canisters off for a week while on vacation last year, I believe the large lava rocks had something to do with it. I just tested the water now and ammonia is zero, nitrites zero, and nitrates are 20. Ph is 8, gh is 4, kh is 9. TDS is 398.

I was so excited because the male shibunkin has finally got breeding stars and the female looks like she is full of eggs, so we are setting up a pond outside for them. The smaller oranda I rescued a couple years ago from the pet store, he was starving and had severe fin rot and I nursed him back to health.

The sick fish that died had red streaks in their tails and seemed to be hemorrhaging There was blood in the water after they had died. Yesterday I researched online and found a parasite called costia that kills quickly and causes hemorrhages so I used Quickcure in the hospital water. A couple of hours later, they were swimming around, so I was hopeful. But when I got up in the middle of the night to check on them, they were floating again so I drained most of the water added fresh water and added some aquarium salt. Then this morning two more were dead in the hospital tank. Please help me save my female shubunkin. She is floating on the top barely able to swim. I do now see a spider like hemorrhage on each side. But her tail is not streaked. I have been doing at least 4 water changes every day. But I don't don't know at this point what else to do for her. If I should add salt and what kind of salt? If I should try to get her to eat some antibiotics?

Thank you in advance for any thing you can do to help. Her mate in the tank seems very depressed, he is looking for her and can't find her. It's so odd that the largest and the smallest fish seem ok but all of the medium-sized fish were affected.

I have removed the decoration and I have removed the underwater light. Is it possible that one of these, or using aquasafe instead of Prime, could have caused it? I am at a loss and feeling helpless and guilty and sad.
 

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:-(
I am sorry to say that in the time I typed this that my female has passed ...
:-(

If anyone can suggest anything to look for in case my remaining fish show signs of something.

The tank parameters: ammonia zero, nitrites zero, nitrate 20, ph 8.0, gh 4, kh 9, TDS 398
 
I just found this site and the sudden death sounds very similar to what I experienced. We had recently had a lot of rain, it is spring, the city may have used more chloramine/chlorine to combat increased bacteria in the water from run-off (we live in a rural community) and at that time unfortunately I ran out of Prime so used another less effective de-chlorinator during the Sunday water change. If I had to guess I would say it was caused by chlorine/chloramine poisoning. It was the perfect storm for my poor fish.

https://goldfishconnection.com/articles/details.php?articleId=166&parentId=1
 
It is suspicious - the high nitrite suggests some time delay so timing could fit. It can take up to 3 days for marks to show apparently.
 
Gosh, this is so sad. So sorry about your beautiful fish.

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Thank you, it means alot to me.

I am used to glancing at the tank and seeing them all watching me with their long fins flowing. Now I see just one. The oldest and smallest one outlived them all, the one who was stunted from malnutrition when I got him from the pet-store.
 

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It is suspicious - the high nitrite suggests some time delay so timing could fit. It can take up to 3 days for marks to show apparently.

That is a good point, I didn't know that about the marks. It was 3 days after the water change when death and the marks showed up, spidery spots, and it looked like bloody areas under the skin. Do these bloody areas under the skin fit with nitrite/chlorine poisoning? It reminded me of snake bites pictures I've seen where the underlying tissue is destroyed.

A hard knock lesson. I will only ever use Prime from now on.
 
That is a good point, I didn't know that about the marks. It was 3 days after the water change when death and the marks showed up, spidery spots, and it looked like bloody areas under the skin. Do these bloody areas under the skin fit with nitrite/chlorine poisoning? It reminded me of snake bites pictures I've seen where the underlying tissue is destroyed.

A hard knock lesson. I will only ever use Prime from now on.


It could be any chemical although ammonia is the main suspect. The nitrite is not such an issue. Given the spike, water chemistry would be my suspect. Have you checked the tap water? Also I assume the ornaments added were aquarium safe (looked so but just in case)?

Other option would be bacterial scepticemia (which could be triggered from high ammonia). No troubles with other fish still? Are the gills looking ok / eating well and not gasping of anything. All I can think of the check.
 
After looking up septicemia, it sounds frightening similar. The outward signs of hemorrhaging didn't show up until right before they died but it was present around their vents and on their sides. Poor things.

Of my 2 remaining fish, one is doing ok and eating. I am giving her Metromeds. The other is sitting on the bottom not eating.

Would it be best to separate them? Add salt? Force feed medicated food to the one not eating?

If it is fish septicemia, is this contagious to people? I have leukemia and wear gloves but wondering if I should clean hospital tank and equip with bleach.


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I just had a thought. There is a ranch store here that sells injectable antibiotics for livestock. Any thoughts about injecting him with antibiotics? I really don't think he is going to make it, he hasn't eaten for days now and his eyes appear to be bulging a little.


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I just had a thought. There is a ranch store here that sells injectable antibiotics for livestock. Any thoughts about injecting him with antibiotics? I really don't think he is going to make it, he hasn't eaten for days now and his eyes appear to be bulging a little.


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I can't really comment there - I've never used these on fish (only cattle). Wouldn't hurt to inquire with them.
 
I just had a thought. There is a ranch store here that sells injectable antibiotics for livestock. Any thoughts about injecting him with antibiotics? I really don't think he is going to make it, he hasn't eaten for days now and his eyes appear to be bulging a little.


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Can I ask what they sell? I know in my region, it's fairly limited to penicillins and similar class antibiotics which are not effective on fish. Decent antibiotics are script-only but you may be able to find tetracycline or oxytetracycline although I suspect as I mentioned a bit earlier that the root cause of this was an issue with the water. Anything is worth a try at this point though!

If you have meth blue on hand, stick him in a bath asap (1tsp/3-5g) along with an aerator. Chlorine/chloramine poisoning affects hemoglobin rendering it unable to carry oxygen. While mb can not undue the chemistry aspect, it does help to increase blood oxygen levels in unaffected cells and may help a bit. I am going to think on this some more and see if I can come up with any other possible explanations for what may have happened. I am so very sorry as you have done a such wonderful job caring for, healing and raising these guys (and girls). :(


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So very sorry for your losses. It is a heart breaking tragedy. They were beautiful fish.

Change of products and water company increases in chemicals both can kill if you aren't dosing enough, and not using the Prime.

I get die off of snails every year when the water company changes lines for using the reservoir instead of the lake which happens when the supplies get reduced around the middle of winter. Different chemicals, and they flush the lines with something I think.
 
Can I ask what they sell? I know in my region, it's fairly limited to penicillins and similar class antibiotics which are not effective on fish. Decent antibiotics are script-only but you may be able to find tetracycline or oxytetracycline although I suspect as I mentioned a bit earlier that the root cause of this was an issue with the water. Anything is worth a try at this point though!

If you have meth blue on hand, stick him in a bath asap (1tsp/3-5g) along with an aerator. Chlorine/chloramine poisoning affects hemoglobin rendering it unable to carry oxygen. While mb can not undue the chemistry aspect, it does help to increase blood oxygen levels in unaffected cells and may help a bit. I am going to think on this some more and see if I can come up with any other possible explanations for what may have happened. I am so very sorry as you have done a such wonderful job caring for, healing and raising these guys (and girls). :(

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Thank you for helping me yet again!!! (you really should write a book, I would buy it!)

Unfortunately I do not have meth blue. where would I buy this?

What you mentioned about the chlorine/chloramine poisoning sounds spot-on.

I've been giving Metromeds to the fish who is still eating. To Bruiser, the one NOT eating, I am mashing up MM in water, turning off the tank filters for awhile and dumping it over him in the hopes that he will ingest some of it since it's in a cloud around him. Also I am not above force feeding him with a dropper if it would help.

Bruiser is actually swimming around tonight, but I don't want to get too hopeful yet. Still not eating. I know he is confused without his mate. If he deteriorates again, I will check tomorrow to see what they sell at the Ranch store. If they have one of the tetracycline antibiotics and it's not too expensive I might be tempted to try it.
 
So very sorry for your losses. It is a heart breaking tragedy. They were beautiful fish.

Change of products and water company increases in chemicals both can kill if you aren't dosing enough, and not using the Prime.

I get die off of snails every year when the water company changes lines for using the reservoir instead of the lake which happens when the supplies get reduced around the middle of winter. Different chemicals, and they flush the lines with something I think.

Thank you for the kind words.

Do you mean to say that you get snails in your tap water?

I know a guy here in town who is the relative of a supervisor at the city water treatment plant. I am going to see what I can find out.

Puzzling questions remain.
 
Thank you for the kind words.

Do you mean to say that you get snails in your tap water?

I know a guy here in town who is the relative of a supervisor at the city water treatment plant. I am going to see what I can find out.

Puzzling questions remain.


It would be interesting to see what can be found out. I think I've seen two(?) other threads now with possible water issues.

It's a bit disturbing that a normal recommendation of pwc's to keep water clean and reduce infection risk could back-fire where the water itself is the problem.

I was wondering if say a pool chlorine test or anything may pick this? It just seems a risk that could roll around every year.
 
Good news, it has been 7 days and Bruiser and and Pumpkin are doing ok. :)

Pumpkin, the smallest one, has been eating her metromeds with some peas. Bruiser has finally started eating a little bit. And I saw him poop a little today, not much but looked pretty normal.:) But they are still not very active (sad, depressed?) Bruise puffs up his dorsal at me now. I dont blame him. They both lost life-long tank mates. I'm sure they are confused.

Today I saw a city truck come by with a big sprayer on the back. In springtime they spray the ditches in front of the houses here to kill weeds. The weather has been warm. I had our big front window open when this happened. A breeze could have blown a big spray of chemicals into the aquarium. Makes me ticked off that they spray our property without asking. We keep the weeds down by tilling them up and burning dead ones. Our dog is sensitive to chemicals (like pesticides,we no longer use any sprays) and she had 2 seizures this last week.

Thanks for your help. I like the idea of using chlorine test strips. Couldn't hurt.
 

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