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Are we talking undergravel filters here? I think i still have one in pieces some where here, but would have NO idea how to set it up anymore6


Yes, under gravel filters. They’re very easy to set up. A simple youtube video would help you with that.

https://youtu.be/d4oqFXC76xk

17:30 minutes onwards.

One of the comments cracked me up. So very true and enlightening.

‘Let's talk about mulm. Yes, mulm does build up under the plates of an undergravel filter. But is that a bad thing? For a fish only tank, my answer is; maybe - if you neglect your water changes. For a planted tank, the answer is a big, capitalized, NO. Let me explain:
What is mulm? Where does it come from and how does it get under the filter plates? Every tank contains some mulm. It will be there until someone breeds a fish or invertebrate that doesn't poop and makes a food that won't decompose if it the doesn't get eaten . Mulm is decomposing organic matter. It originates from three sources. One, poop from fish, shrimp, snails, and any other aquatic animal you have in your tank. Two, uneaten food. Three, leaves, stems, and other plant parts that break off and die. All of these things are heavier than water, so they naturally fall to the bottom of the tank. Even before they fall, microorganisms living in the tank start to work on them. If there are any gardeners out there, this will sound familiar, It is exactly what happens to the stuff you throw into your compost heap, and the end result is the same thing- humus. Yes, mulm is aquatic humus, and it has the same benefits for aquatic plants as terrestrial humus has for your garden and potted plants. As the stuff decomposes, it breaks down into finer and finer particles and drops through the spaces between grains of gravel until it reaches the solid bottom of the tank. If there is no undergravel filter, It would still find its way through the substrate, just not as quickly. As the mulm decomposes, it releases the minerals stored in the food or poop back into the water. If the substrate is filled with living plant roots, it is quickly absorbed and used by the plants. If there are no plants present, that is why every sensible aquarist does water changes and gravel vac. The mulm will decompose, and the minerals will be released, regardless of the filtration system used. Whether it happens in the sump, the canister, the sponge, the sand, the gravel, or the floss is up to you and what kind of filter you use. In an undergravel filter, it happens in the gravel or under the plates where it can be easily be absorbed by the plants.
Another, seldom mentioned, benefit of undergravel filters is their effect on the oxygen - carbon dioxide cycle. Everyone knows about photosynthesis and how plants turn CO2 into O2. Most know that under bright light in a heavily planted tank, this can result in over oxygenation and a deficiency of CO2. What is less well known is that this process stops at the top of the gravel. The roots of plants do not receive any light and do not perform photosynthesis. They must absorb oxygen and release
CO2 or die. By circulating water through the gravel, UG filters bring oxygen down to the plant roots, and move the carbon dioxide produced by the roots up to the top of the tank, where the leaves and stems can use it in photosynthesis. One result of this is that with an undergravel filter, you find that the substrate is filled with a luxuriant growth of clean white roots. This is particularly obvious with Amazon sword plants, which will send huge masses of roots down through the filter plate and into the mulm below.
I will always use undergravel filters, and if they stop making them, I will make my own out of cpvc pipe. Don't worry about the haters. Hate is the result of ignorance. I know that the UG filters work and so do you.’
 
I can imagine. Probably need a decent size air pump to get things going on a tank that size. Having said that, i can only imagine they were kiboshed due to the fact that once you purchased the filter and the pump and walked out of the shop you were good for the next 30 years. Not exactly good for business.



I wonder if they will get interest with electricity power prices going up. The air powered ones would be cheap I guess.

Generally I think organic matter is bad for fish, good for plants. But this would maybe(?) pull a lot of muck from under rocks /ornaments which I find can’t be gravel vacced anyways.
 
Generally I think organic matter is bad for fish, good for plants. But this would maybe(?) pull a lot of muck from under rocks /ornaments which I find can’t be gravel vacced anyways.


Too much organic matter is bad for everything. Mainly because the draw on oxygen demand increases and if levels fall low enough that aerobic microbes in the substrate cannot function then the whole system can fail. This is why i always believe algae grows in this scenario. Its to reset the system.

Under gravel filters keep the substrate well oxygenated. Plants will take oxygen down to the root zone for microbes that have a symbiotic relationship with the plant and its roots so in essence, plants can do a good job all alone without the need for a UGF. Problem is the plants need to be healthy. How can you start a tank to ensure things remain in a positive cycle?
 
The stuff you can see floating is the mulm. It’s so light that it just doesn’t settle and the bit that does settles on the leaves. It’s completely harmless and doesn’t cause any issues as its just processed muck. Processed to the point where there’s nothing much in it. I predict it will start covering the substrate entirely in a few more years. After a month my sponge has collected enough to slow the flow right down but this was undesirable since this would effect the surface agitation and cause fluctuations in gas exchange and I wanted to keep the mixing at the water surface stable and consistent. So I took the sponge out hence the floating mulm. It gets kicked up by the fish and shrimp but I think it adds bit of character and looks more natural. The fish are so lively in this tank and the Rasbora constantly frolic, spar and mate. If they do spawn I doubt anything will live through with these Amano shrimp but who knows.

Top ups now with rain water and RO mix. TDS 150. Nitrate and phosphate 0ppm. Plants growing in 6 watts. No ferts or co2. Eco complete substrate.
 
Thinking about it now. An undergravel filter would have been perfect for this stage. I could have still used the bubbles generated to oxygenate the water column AND had the mulm pulled down out of the water column and in to the substrate. The tank would look clearer.
 
I’ve added some Rotala Wallichii. In theory it should like my water. Lets see how it does. It’s often said that it’s one of the more difficult species to keep.
 
Good luck with the R wallichii. I was able to get the tops pink but it was also plagued with a grayish staghorn like algae at the lower portion of the stems.
 
Good luck with the R wallichii. I was able to get the tops pink but it was also plagued with a grayish staghorn like algae at the lower portion of the stems.


A few of the guys in the ‘aquatic plant science group’ I’m in use it as a reference for a well rounded fert mix if they can get it to grow well but as I’m sure we all know by now, not every plant has the same requirements. Funnily enough, the only person i know growing it beautifully well is the guy who has encouraged me to go low tech. He’s using sand and rain water and nothing else. It would seem his species like to grow on next to nothing.

Ill see if I can get him to send me a picture.
 
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I think I might pick it up and add it to my stash. Future project. They are cheap too.
 
This thread is so retro, I’m just waiting for a steel framed, slate bottom tank to show up. JK, though I had one as a kid.
I’m interested in how this turns out in terms of long term nutrient management. This is contrary to the aquaculture/SW mindset of immediate waste removal via weirs, settling chambers, filter socks, etc before it gets the chance to breakdown.
 
This thread is so retro, I’m just waiting for a steel framed, slate bottom tank to show up. JK, though I had one as a kid.
I’m interested in how this turns out in terms of long term nutrient management. This is contrary to the aquaculture/SW mindset of immediate waste removal via weirs, settling chambers, filter socks, etc before it gets the chance to breakdown.


Haha, I’m only going that far back with the principles not the tank itself.

Honestly Fresh for me, keeping the tank this way is so much more rewarding. I’m not going to lie and say I don’t miss a bit of co2 and fert dosing but I don’t miss the management involved in a high tech tank and I still don’t agree with some of the practices. You only have to log on to my favourite UK based aquatic plant society page and look at all the people struggling there with algae.

What I think people don’t seem to realise is that when you set up a new unseeded tank you’re going to get algae. You just compound the misery by feeding it in most high tech scenarios. If you wait it out things become good. It’s not a matter of you just suddenly figure it out. The tank has just fully matured. Some high tech practices don’t allow the tank to mature in the way this age old method does. You are constantly at risk of resetting the biofilter or at least stalling it for a short time. Thats when algae crops up.

As for nutrients. Plant growth for some is good. For other its painfully slow BUT they grow AND the tank is way more stable. They just continue to become more and more stable to the point (so I’m lead to believe at this stage) that you can turn the co2 back on gently and have major improvements in growth. You can do the same by adding fish. But as you know I like o2 more than I like co2.

The Wallichii seems to have responded very well. Only problem I have is the floating mulm. Its so fine that my little pick up filter won’t catch it and it settles on leaves. It doesn’t bother me but I can see how it would bother someone else. Enter the undergravel filter [emoji846]
 
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