3 questions from a novice with a 112G tank & 2nd hand fi

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Frankie

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
Dec 30, 2003
Messages
23
Location
Australia
Hi ya from Australia
This is a long post so I hope you will forgive me. :oops:

After buying a 5G aquarium in December I've been seriously bitten by the fish bug.
My new 112G tank should be up & running in 3-4 weeks time so I would appreciate any advice.
TANK
5 ft W x 18" D x 2 ft H

I've been visiting our site since December so that I can plan, think, plan, think, & never stop planning & thinking.
I thought I had it all "together", but now that I'm nearly there, I'm feeling a bit jittery.

2nd HAND FILTER
external RESIN AE-806
My local "fish place" moved last weekend & since they didn't have this filter in stock I bought their filter 2nd hand.
After cleaning it, I filled it with water treated with "Bio Booster" & "Safeguard".
Is it OK to leave it sitting for another 3-4 weeks?
Do I have to do anything to it.
The tank it was servicing was absolutely pristine.

I'm really scared about leaving this filter sitting.

FISH STOCK
I really really wanted to have discus. :cry:
But ... I want other fish too ...
so I have decided to have angels as my main fish so that I can have more variety.
I plan to have:
angels (I live in Australia so I am limited to ordinary angels & cannot obtain the more vibrantly coloured varieties)
zebra danios
gourami (lace & the blue ones)
barbs (tiger & the greenie ones)
clown loaches
sword tails
red fin rainbbow sharks
knife fish (I found him last weekend - he's black, his underside fins stretch the length of his body & wave like a flag in the wind)
1 x snail

What do you think? Do you have any other suggestions? Should I get an algae eater too?

HOW MANY CAN I HAVE OF EACH?
WHAT DO I PUT IN FIRST & HOW MANY OF EACH?

MY TANK SET UP
I want a rock wall at one end and a mini garden at the other.
I have a dual air pump so that I can have air stones from my rock wall & the skiny non chill-out end of my driftwood (2.5ft long in the middle of the tank but the skinny end is to be built into the rock wall)
In relation to the position of the intake for the filter ...
should the rock wall or the garden be at the intake end?

I would prefer that the rock wall be at the intake end & I thought that I should curve the rock wall away from the rear so that there is clear water movement to the intake.

The tank is situated on my patio (I'm spoilt - I live in Queensland, Australia - in the semi tropics ... so I need no heating at all - just ice cubes).
I feel that my rock wall should be a fish refuge and away from human movement.
My mini garden is also supposed to be a fish refuge, but I feel that this refuge is a "bed time" refuge.
I also chose my driftwood very carefully. My human preference was that the driftwood would represent our local mangrove timber. My fishy preference was that the driftwood would provide "chill out" places & hidey places. It was really easy - I can't wait to see the exciitement of my fish to find our driftwood.
 
Ok, lots of questions to answer here, i'll try to answer them all. First of all, you will need a heater. If not to keep the tank warm then to keep it stable. Temperature fluctuations is very stressful on the fish. And you're keeping the tank on the patio? I dont know what the temperatures are like in austrailia but if it gets above 85-90, it will need to be in an air-conditioned room.

And what kind of filter is it? A 112g will need a lot of filtration. And I dont see a problem just letting the filter sit there. As long as it isnt outside :p.

There is a few problems with your fish selection. First of all, tiger barbs are notorious nippers and will likely nip the fins of any long-finned fish in your tank, so you should probably skip them. And you'll need to specify the type of knife your considering. Theres the brown knife, which only reaches 8-12", then theres the ghost and clown knife that can grow 2feet+, which is too big for your tank.

About the plants, are you talking about live plants or fake ones. Live plants need lots of care. You'll need to tell us what kind of wattage you got on your lights before you even consider them. And it doesnt really matter where the filter intake is, how about in the plant end, then it will be hidden by plants.

Heres an example stocking list you could use with the fish listed.

5 Angels - You might run in to some problems if they decide to breed.
8 Danios (Look for long finned leapord danios, they are just like zebras but much nicer)
1 Gourami (any kind, more than one can lead to problems)
3 Clown Loaches
6 Swordtails (They will try and reproduce, but the babies will likely be eaten by tankmates)
1 Red-finned shark (Dont mistake him with the red-tail black shark)
A couple apple snails.

You should also try the fishless cycle, it takes a while but its worth it and no fish get hurt or permanently scarred in the process. Heres an article on it: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=15

If your not doing that then I suggest adding all 8 danios in first. Danios are very hardy fish and will likley survive the nitrogen cycle. If you dont know about the cycle then read about it here :http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=21
 
I just looked up that filter and It looks like you'll need an additional filter. You could get another canister (Fluval or Eheim), or the less expensive HOB filters, look into the Aqua Clear 500 Power filter.
 
[center:e648c47bef] :smilecolros: Welcome to AA, Frankie!! :n00b: [/center:e648c47bef]
It looks like Endgame has given some good advice. Barbs have a nippy rep! If you want a schooling fish, have you considered Serpea tetras?
 
Menagerie, Serpae have a kind of Jeckel and Hyde reputation. They can be horrible nippers, or very peacful. I would still avoid them if you're going with angels.
 
Cam - thank you.
I wanted to do a fishless cycle even before I bought the 2nd hand filter. After the 2nd hand I really really wanted to do the fishlless.
Our site talks about asking & I have asked many questions of my "fish shops". My very special fish shop didn't want me to do a fishless cycle. I will definitely do it now & I feel sooooo relieved.
I just knew I was going to be recommended heaps of angels.
I was hoping for less - & working on a pair to give room for others which can school.
I was looking for a spot of colour - hence my thought about barbs & blue gourami.
I've potentially got an anaemic looking tank. Is there anything out there to give me a school of smaller fish with some colour? I can give the barbs a miss quite easily. I have a husband. He's not into fish at all (or so he says) so I'm trying to placate him with some colour since that's what he wants. My fish ARE mine, but I would dearly love to share with Alan.

I can't be more specific about the knife fish right now but I'll check it out. The one I saw was almost fully grown but not as big as 12". - maybe 9" thru the glass. I saw another one & it had 4 big spots along it's side.

Re the heating.
Believe me - I don't need a heater - I need ice cubes!!!!!
But I take your point & I was already going to keep a very big eye on the temperature. I honestly think that the new tank will be very stable for temperature.
I chose the position of the tank very carefully & I think the temperature won't fluctuate greatly.
We "live" on the patio - summer & winter. We only ever sleep inside. The fish will be fine.

The Filter
I'm so chuffed Cam.
The "fish shop" had an additional filter on their tank.
I asked about it but they were adamant that this was their preference & I didn't need an additional filter.

Rocks or plants by the pump inlet.
Like all of us, I want a beautiful tank.
BUT ....
I want to look after my fish.
I hear what you say about the plants hiding the filter - my sentiments too.
But .... I want a quiet place for my fish.
When I spoke about a rock wall - I mean a rock WALL.
If I build it very carefully, I can achieve a fishy quiet place & a human preference to not see the ugly pipes,,
I figure that if I curve the wall sweeping from the front & don't hit the back; gradually reduce the height on the swerve; the fish & the human will be happy.
The plants will also be fish refuge. But, from my little tank, it appears that the plant refuge is important for bed-time. The wee garden will then shield during human traffic times & give a fishy mattress at night.

My plants.
I'm going to do real ones.
Just now I'm only going to do a few plants - but I honestly feel that things will change & it will be a semi planted tank.

Lighting
I've got a 5' tank.
Lights come in 4' or 6'.
I thought I needed a double tube.
My fish place says I'm fine with one bulb.
The tank will not receive direct sunlight. It will receive good late afternoon light & warmth.
 
sorry Cam
I've just realised I didn't reply properly about the positioning of the rocks/garden.
I told you what I'm trying to achieve - but how can I make sure I don't hurt the fish with that rkck wall???
 
One question, is your tank in imperial gallons or US gallons? This website uses US gallons so whenever we refer to "gallons" were talking US gallons.

I know what you mean when you say you want a fish refuge, but I dont think a rock wall is neccecary. What you could do is just stack the rocks in a formation where the fish can have places to hide, and you could make a few DIY caves out of PVC pipe, heres some pics: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=20028 .

And with your fish choices, you could definately lose a few angels and have some schools of small fish. Look at a profile website such as liveaquaria.com and pick out your favourites, then check back with us to see if they would work.

To keep most live plants alive, you need at least 1-2 flourescent watts per gallon, and high light plants need 3-4 wpg. This can be very expensive. A 4' NO bulb has only 40 watts, so even two wouldn't be enough light. The minimum with NO would be a triple tube which would be 120watts or 1.07 wpg, and you would only be able to grow low light plants (Look at plantgeek.com for ideas). You're other options are to use power compact bulbs, metal halide, a quad tube NO, or VHO. All of which would cost around $300 US.

And you'll be better off not making big decisions based on advice from an lfs because more often than not they don't know what they're talking about. You'll definately need an additional filter, the reccomended turnover rate is 6+. And if this is your filter: http://www.dragon-pet.com/filter2.htm . Then you only have around 300 gallons per hour or a turnover rate of less than 3. I Highly reccomend you get an additional HOB filter such as the AC500. They are quite cheap and very reliable.
 
With so many asian/eastern hemisphere fish chosen as your interest....
I say you should go for a biotope. Dump the angels and SA fish and add even more gourami.
With patience you can order fish from asian importers. be sure to order them all at once to make your shipping negligble.

Have some T. leeri gourami as your "angels" they come in 3 color morphs and a 4th reddish one is almost available. They are better socially than many other bubble nester. Get about 7.
(Your naughtier gourami are T.trichopterus types and colisa lalia. They have to be an all or none kinda thing. One single or starting at 3 fems per male and adding more after that.)

Then put a ton rasboras in and loaches. Instead of large bioload of clowns taking your space available yet. Get the same patterned kuhlis and a pack of equally entertaining and more stirkingly patterned striatas and some sids.
Put some glass cats in there for interest. All these fish are very hardy when kept warm and may forgive imperfect pH and some fluctuations. Especially commercial bred ones.
lemme find some real images for ya.. I just drew one up for someone else here. Then you can have highbody graceful fish, colorful fish. you may even be able to put certain types of barb and maybe a shark too.
 
:multi:
wow - thank you for your replies.
Cam
that is my filter & I've got 112 USg's.
I had seen that DIY PVC cave but had forgotten about it. I'll try one.
I'll have a look at some fish later & come back to you.
 
Christmasfish ... thank you for your suggestions but I wanted a pair of larger fish so that I can enjoy them from a distance when I don't want to watch TV. I was very tempted with your suggestions, but as I said, I want a pair of biggies.
Menagerie .... I had thought of the serape tetra but I had read they were nippy so I left them out of my original list.

fishprofiles.com didn't give me compatibility for discus that liveaquaria.com is giving.
liveaquaria.com tells me I can have discus with the fish I've already chosen. I'm hoping to swap the angels for the discus.

How does this stock sound :?:
a pair of discus (if you don't like this, I will swap them back to a pair of angels)
8 leopard Danios (Can I have 6 & add to the harlequins :?: )
harlequin rasbora (how many :?: )
2 Clown Loaches (why did you suggest 3 Cam :?: ) I already have 2 little buggers running riot in my little tank so they have a "shift me" sticker between their eyes.
8 rummy nose tetra
1 Red-finned shark
1 apple snail (Cam, I thought u can only have 1 given the breeding capabilities :idea: ).
Cam, why am I only allowed to have one gourami :?: I was hoping for a school. If I can only have 1, I will go for the blue one. But I really really really love the lace gourami.

I've got a lot of orange in the tank.
The rummy nose tetra were a non thing for me but they are growing on me. They are in the compatible list so I need to think hard about which orange I should biff. Given the fish shapes, I replaced the swordtails with the tetras.

Am I allowed to have some glass catfish :?:

I haven't managed to go to the FS so I haven't checked on the knife fish. He looks look a black ghost but I don't remember him having the tail shown on the web.

My Rock Wall
I have a fetish for rocks & my garden is full of mementos. I had a play today & the rocks are looking good. I will tone it down & make those DIY PVC caves.

Lighting
I will look around & get a better unit.

Filter
I'll get an add on.
 
I have no experience with discus but maybe one of our discus experts can chime in. Do you know the pH of your tap water? That might affect which fish you can get. Both Discus and rummynose tetra require acidic water.

Harlequin Rasboras are very small fish and don't really have much effect on the bio-load, I suppose you could do 6 danios and then have 6 rasboras. I suggested 3 clown loaches because clown loaches are a social species and do best in groups of 3+. Apple snails only breed above the water-line so you wont have any problems with more than one snail. Its the pond snails that are hermaphrodites and reproduce like mad. I'm not 100% sure on the gourami thing, maybe christmasfish could answer that for you.
 
Well I am not sure why a gourami grouping wouldn't be visible enough...
T. Leeri top about at about 6 inches and moonlight gourami top put from 7 to 8 inches. t leeri come in 3 color morphs, an ivory, a gold and a bluish as wellas the striking marked wilds. They can be mixed and matched because they are same species.
Why is is to be one or many?
The larger portion of bubblenesters are hardwired in habit for murky, turbid plant heavy water. Jueveniles shoal loosely for some time and there are some seasons they shoal loosely again. But they are not shoaling species. Once mature, breeding behavior sets in. Each fish decides a nesting territory to defend. Sometimes they decide this is the whole tank! 8O :twisted: A pair of males will eventually rip each other up and the weaker will stress to death in some "allowed" corner space.
A single female will be harrassed about breeding and will stress . Colisa species will outright kill an unwilling female..
When there are just 3 fish the omega fish will be harrassed to death by the other two. SO comes the numbers 4+ or 1. Uneven numbers are best after 4 (1 male 3 female). Mouth brooders are more congenial but less colorful. Moonlight gourami and mosaic gourami are congenial with minor pecking order disputes. They get very miserable alone though. Ill miserable. Kissing gourami have unique (to labyrinths) way of resolving dispute.."the kiss".
The one and two spot gourami morphs have many the same habits as dwarf gourami. They get slightly lonely if there is only one but usually are comforted by tank mates being present. Most have a lifespan of a good 8 years plus if under less stress. (least that is how old many of my grandfather's were before I moved)
And you cannot mix males of different species.When it comes to territory..you look like a gourami..you breath at top like gourami..you are a gourami like me. A colisa will take offense to a two spot in "his" territory and the other way around.
There are exceptions here and there... but most people don't have gourami live long enough to have the adult problems set in so I discount a good 50% of those exceptions. Another exception is if they are overcrowded. If you pack the tank visibly full, then they cannot really establish a territory or decide who is the boss. But you will still have a few fade out and the added problem of strict water quality testing. :?
Another thing is that as nasty as most bubble nesters are to each other.... they are a very shy and cowardly fish with other species. Which mean a 3 inch blackskirt can cause your 6 inch gourami to hide in a corner and starve. :(
And I am not trying to make you turn off gourami. just dispel myths that cause them to be short lived adn tank monsters. I have raised labyrinth fish before and am in the process of doin so again. they are my most favorite fish and if conditions are right they are friendly, personable hardy and long lived.

As for loaches..they are a ..."grouping" species. They don't swim in midwater so are not called shoaling. But the majority of loaches need to be in schools. And some botia like clowns and blues are quite large. 3 clowns is 36+ gallons of your bioload. NEARLY ONE THIRD your tank space gone already....yeeps! My lfs had a 10 inch clown he grew to that size in about 6 months.
And many do hide a lot once they get older, or if they do not like the tankmates.


A small glimpse of discus (my daughter wants some and is in my ear like a flea)..unless you are breeding them in a tank with ULTRA compatible species....you have to have around SIX. And they're super water quality sensitive. Most keepers change the water every other day. 8O And they don't like temp swings AT all.
Brian NY is one of the uber discus people here. He''ll chime in the big stuff.


By the way, rasboras and little fish I mentioned are very nice color splashes when shoaling and healthy. Black ghost knives are very nice fish. But hide a lot. They get pretty big..a foot long. And they are very vulnerable to nippy tankmates because their special locomotion. They also need special care in feeding if you fill up your bottom level with fish. they are quite a a bit less aggressive than their cousins the clown and royal knife. Though if a fish is on the bottom and can fit in..down the hatch it'll go. :)
What many of us find is that once filling a "big" tank..we end up with less fish than we thought we'd get when we try to accomodate the fish needs :oops:

Sorry to make it like a long lecture..it is just a lot of info to impart even without any persoanl views.. :wink:
 
Oh nooooooooooo :!:
I've lost my reply twice now so I'm starting over again 8O

Cam
I cannot know what my pH is - my neighbour has borrowed my kit. All I can remember is that from time to time I need to increase my pH a tiny wee bit from time to time.

Christmasfish
I've decided to run around the lfs's this weekend to see if I can see some of your suggestions. I hope they are available here. I know some of your fish, but not all.

As for your proverbial lecture, Christmasfish I thank you for your time, advice & information. So please don't feel that way :kiss:

... and to u too Cam ... :wink:

:n00b:
Knifefish.
I had heard that they are not for beginners .... but u know what it's like when a lfs gets hold of u ... :idea: I have seen them almost fully grown.

Bioload.
I know exactly what u are saying. I was worried about it too, especially when I wanted to add the knife. I luv clown loaches - they are so playful, graceful & mischievous when they are little. I don't like them when they get big since they only ever seem to "chill out". I had planned to send my loaches to the local live fish auction whenever they started to get too big. I figured that would give me medium sized bioload back from time to time.

Stock
You all brought me back down to earth when u started to give me my stock quantities. I knew u would pull my quantities down considering the big ones, but I was surprised that u pulled me down that much.

As a newbie, it's confusing when u go to a lfs & see a tank brimming with fish & find you're only allowed to have a few. I was quite taken aback with the news from u all that I was so restricted with the gouramis. The lfs fish all look so beautiful when there are heaps.
I have learnt with my little tank that just a few of each are gorgeous since u see & enjoy each & every one of them.

Discus
I was so excited when liveaquaria.com put me back into the discus mode. Originally my lfs told me that discus can be made accustomed to a lower pH but they wouldn't display as much colour or breed. I gave them away at that point since I couldn't bear to have fish that were not happy. I take heed of your advice & opinion Christmasfish, together with the lack of compatibility from liveaquaria.com ... so it's a big :nono: to discus.

I'll get back to you after I go to the lfs.
 
Oh nooooooooooo :!:
I've lost my reply twice now so I'm starting over again 8O

Cam
I cannot know what my pH is - my neighbour has borrowed my kit. All I can remember is that from time to time I need to increase my pH a tiny wee bit from time to time.

Christmasfish
I've decided to run around the lfs's this weekend to see if I can see some of your suggestions. I hope they are available here. I know some of your fish, but not all.

As for your proverbial lecture, Christmasfish I thank you for your time, advice & information. So please don't feel that way :kiss:

... and to u too Cam ... :wink:

:n00b:
Knifefish.
I had heard that they are not for beginners .... but u know what it's like when a lfs gets hold of u ... :idea: I have seen them almost fully grown.

Bioload.
I know exactly what u are saying. I was worried about it too, especially when I wanted to add the knife. I luv clown loaches - they are so playful, graceful & mischievous when they are little. I don't like them when they get big since they only ever seem to "chill out". I had planned to send my loaches to the local live fish auction whenever they started to get too big. I figured that would give me medium sized bioload back from time to time.

Stock
You all brought me back down to earth when u started to give me my stock quantities. I knew u would pull my quantities down considering the big ones, but I was surprised that u pulled me down that much.

As a newbie, it's confusing when u go to a lfs & see a tank brimming with fish & find you're only allowed to have a few. I was quite taken aback with the news from u all that I was so restricted with the gouramis. The lfs fish all look so beautiful when there are heaps.
I have learnt with my little tank that just a few of each are gorgeous since u see & enjoy each & every one of them.

Discus
I was so excited when liveaquaria.com put me back into the discus mode. Originally my lfs told me that discus can be made accustomed to a lower pH but they wouldn't display as much colour or breed. I gave them away at that point since I couldn't bear to have fish that were not happy. I take heed of your advice & opinion Christmasfish, together with the lack of compatibility from liveaquaria.com ... so it's a big :nono: to discus.

I'll get back to you after I go to the lfs.
 
It is hard to go to the LFS and see a ton of fish, but remember, that is not their life long home. Plus, the more fish per tank in the LFS, the cheaper they are to house for the LFS. If the LFS is good, the dead fish are pulled quickly and you don't see the end result of the stress on the fish in the cramped quarters.
 
Augh, more LFS bashing, oh well. On one side, Discus like water in the 6.5-6.7 pH range so I doubt you would need to raise your ph for them. Also, they prefer water in the 80-85 degree range, so your temp would be ideal, but it would need to be controllable. The only water condition You probably have to worry about would be hardness. Discus like very soft water. You should be changing the water 20% every few days at least. A good combo would be 10 cardinal tetras 5 bleeding heart tetras and 6-8 discus. Variety is going to be limited with discus, but they are more than worth it, and it sounds like your conditions would be great for them.

Pick up some literature on general aquatics, and on discus specifically. Compare and contrast. There is no such thing as an over-informed decision.
 
Aww, that twernt bashin (what I do is bashing :roll: )..

But what AtLarge touched in is another direction.. and a cool one . Make it a discus tank!
And a few (like one mixable group of max 10)non nippy small fast, gentile companions for an activity level (not neons-aka snaks- probably but some of the wee bigger ones) and be sure to choose smaller tank cleaners or bottom fish to insure quality and compatibility.




An lfs...my guy I consider pretty good..there are 8 other sources in reasonable driving distance I go to him 80%. My lfs changes his discus display tank by 50% every other day...this tank is well established. His other tank gets a 20% every other day...and the difference in color is very obvious.
He is a great guy but even he does shave the corners on occasion. And and it almost always backfires with the heavy losses. He never has diseases in his established fish. He got lazy with QT once last month and had a tank of wild rams get fish warts as well as about 40 clown loaches and some large tetras. My lfs has an average tank size of 55.
BTW: I usually bash corporate stores that carry fish because more often than not they are horrendous..and unlike small shops..they chain can support the bad ones that would go out of business if they were private franchises. And they encourage bad folklore fishkeeping practices.... if the employee even knows that much. So you'll see me downright attacking "the establishment". But I am a prickly sort anyway. :twisted:
 
hi again
the discus tank does sound just fabulous
but ....
I in all honesty I don't think I could manage to keep up with the tank maintenance they deserve. :bawl: I'm a very busy girl workwise and in my spare time I give voluntary service to a non-profit community aid centre. At times I "work" 14-21 days straight + evenings.
I will always manage weekly tank maintenance, & at times like this week when I had problems with my 5g tank, I got up earlier to look after it. (The electricals in my hood are faulty so I was without a filter for 3 days).

my tap water pH is around 6.8.

When I first started planning my tank in January, I wanted a pair of discus, 2 or 3 schools & snail & 1 or 2 bottom dwellers.

I've given myself a day of work so I'm going to chop down trees & print this topic & drive the lfs's mad. :crazyeyes:

Our local lfs's are great. They are privately owned & they are a wonderful source of information & advice. I never go to the corporate lfs.
 
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