4+ weeks of Cycling Fishless and no changes...what am I doing wrong?

[librarygirl]

can't say for sure all ikno is this sand has buffers in it good for sw tanks if you have any left over looks like you got a new project to work on lol

Well I did't buy anything tonight because they didn't have any more of the crushed coral and I didn't know the crushed argonite was the same thing, they did have the SW sand but again it wasn't coral so I didn't get anything. Oh well. lol

 

[eco23]

Get CC or the aragonite. The aragonite is better at buffering...but it's a bit more expensive and has sharp edges which isn't very good to use as substrate. The texture won't matter though as long as you put it in a bag in the filter.

 

[eco23]

Sorry, we had mentioned the aragonite earlier in the thread today. Probably just got lost in all the posts.

 

[xxwolfpackof1xx]

sw sand? hm ikno the carbi sea is used in sw for buffer and for the sake of its arognite
did you try the petsmsrt near me they should have CC

 

[xxwolfpackof1xx]

just meet with library now i must go into hiding im exposed! lol it's nice havin a fellow AA so close...now if we can only turn her into a reefer....

 

[xxwolfpackof1xx]

so eco i gave her a good 2 cups almost of cravel and a nice little ripping of my filter media i swear if she dosnt cycle now lol. library you may want to test my water im not sure of my trate level i haven't had a full grave vac in a few weeks and my filter media was dirtier than i thought considering i rinse it every pwc

 

[eco23]

so eco i gave her a good 2 cups almost of cravel and a nice little ripping of my filter media i swear if she dosnt cycle now lol. library you may want to test my water im not sure of my trate level i haven't had a full grave vac in a few weeks and my filter media was dirtier than i thought considering i rinse it every pwc

That's absolutely awesome . I still think she needs higher alkalinity to get the cycle moving (check out the link Mr. Limpet put up before), but the media + the buffers is gonna get her moving REAL fast.

 

[xxwolfpackof1xx]

That's absolutely awesome . I still think she needs higher alkalinity to get the cycle moving (check out the link Mr. Limpet put up before), but the media + the buffers is gonna get her moving REAL fast.

sweet i want to help best i can im excited to watch her take off

 

[librarygirl]

First, thank you SO MUCH WolfPack you are AWESOME. It's nice to have so many people as invested in this tank as I am now

Ok, so on my way home I stopped at PetSmart and bought the bag of Argonite gravel, looks like little shells, for SW tanks (it was with the SW stuff). On the bag it says how it reduces nitrates and is good for buffering. I also bought 2 mesh bags 3" wide by 8" high.

I got home and put the clipping of the filter pad WolfPack gave me onto my current filter. Just laid it across the top, it doesn't impede water flow or anything.

I then put the gravel he gave me into one of the mesh bags. I was going to try to lay it across the top of my filter pad (or even inside) too but then was worried it would mess with the flow or something so I just floated it in the tank - is it OK there or should I move it? WolfPack, I forgot to test the water though. Doh.

I then filled the second mesh bag with the argonite and rinsed everything. I then sunk that into my tank too.

So it's all in there. How long until I know this has failed? (I'm rather pessimistic at this point, as you can see ) A week? Two?

Also, this may be dumb, but: IF this does work and I remove the gravel bag and the argonite bag will that crash my cycle? Or should my current filter then be able to handle the load? I'm guessing I would take out the two bags and then test my filter alone with ammonia, right? Although I hate to say I'm doubting I'll get to that point.

Also earlier I redosed ammo and retested after 45 minutes, it's back up to about 3-4 ppm now.

Ok so....let the cycling commence. I hope. Please God lol

 

[eco23]

First, thank you SO MUCH WolfPack you are AWESOME. It's nice to have so many people as invested in this tank as I am now

Ok, so on my way home I stopped at PetSmart and bought the bag of Argonite gravel, looks like little shells, for SW tanks (it was with the SW stuff). On the bag it says how it reduces nitrates and is good for buffering. I also bought 2 mesh bags 3" wide by 8" high.

I got home and put the clipping of the filter pad WolfPack gave me onto my current filter. Just laid it across the top, it doesn't impede water flow or anything.

I then put the gravel he gave me into one of the mesh bags. I was going to try to lay it across the top of my filter pad (or even inside) too but then was worried it would mess with the flow or something so I just floated it in the tank - is it OK there or should I move it? WolfPack, I forgot to test the water though. Doh.

I then filled the second mesh bag with the argonite and rinsed it off some, probably not as thoroughly as I could have, but whatever. I floated that into my tank too.

So it's all in there. How long until I know this has failed? (I'm rather pessimistic at this point, as you can see ) A week? Two?

Also, this may be dumb, but: IF this does work and I remove the gravel bag and the argonite bag will that crash my cycle? Or should my current filter then be able to handle the load? I'm guessing I would take out the two bags and then test my filter alone with ammonia, right? Although I hate to say I'm doubting I'll get to that point.

Ok so....let the cycling commence. I hope. Please God lol

We'll be able to tell within a week. We just want it in there to get the tank cycled. Once the bacteria is established, you can pull it out no problem.

You've done everything you can possibly do. Time to sit back a while and see what happens. I have a good feeling.

 

[xxwolfpackof1xx]

id say try the gravel in the filter if it impedes flow place it under filter intake in 14 days we should see something i hope lol test your water in an hour im unsure of my trate levels i pwcd Friday but you never know

 

[firteen888]

Let's say her alkalinity ISN'T low......can putting the aragonite in the tank cause any problems? If her alkalinity is normal, can the aragonite cause it to become too high?

 

[eco23]

Let's say her alkalinity ISN'T low......can putting the aragonite in the tank cause any problems? If her alkalinity is normal, can the aragonite cause it to become too high?

No. It will only buffer to a certain level and stop. There are absolutely 0 negatives to adding it.

I don't believe in altering water when fish are in a tank, but fishless...there are no downsides and only potential positives.

People use CC and aragonite as their entire substrates...that's why it comes in such big bags.

 

[James_in_MN]

I must say, your predicament is quite baffling.

Since then I've:
Turned up the air stone
Turned up the heat to 85 degrees F
Dosed with pure ACE Hardware ammonia
Tried adding a small amount of ground-up fish food (which turned the water cloudy the next day)

After about 3 weeks of this there were no drops in ammonia and no nitrates or nitrites. I then purchased a "seeded" sponge filter online and installed it maybe two Saturdays ago. The next day the ammonia dropped from about 2 to 0.5 and I saw nitrAtes between 0 and 5, but no nitrItes. I was hopeful, so I dosed the ammonia back up to 3-4 and there it has stayed. The other levels stayed the same also except for a slight rise in NitrAtes to 5.

After another week I got discouraged again so last weekend I cut up the sponge filter and put what I could fit next to the tank's current filter, drained most of the water out, and added Tetra Safe Start.

Since adding the SafeStart last Sunday my nitrAtes went up to between 10 and 20 but ammonia is holding at 2 and no nitrItes at all ever.

Ammonia: looks like it's back to 1 (the last couple of days it seemed like it was about 1.5 but it's hard to read the tubes, any bit of shadow or wrong lighting and they look darker than they really might be, so perhaps it has been 1 all along)

NitrItes: still 0 (I've given up on seeing purple)

NitrAtes: still between 10 and 20, hard to tell the difference

Ph: still dark blue, higher than 7.6

High PH: still 7.4

My pH is around 7.8, and I was able to successfully fishless cycle my 10g tank, so I don't think the pH is the issue.

You have your heat up to help bacteria growth, which is good. I only had mine at 82 degrees (the max of my digital thermometer), but 85 should be good I think.

You've got the right ammonia to dose with.

My suggestion to you: don't bother testing nitrAtes at all for a while. The fact that you're somehow seeing nitrAtes without any nitrItes doesn't make any sense at all.

What you need to do is isolate the main problem you're having, which is the inability to build up a colony of ammonia-eating bacteria. You added seeded filter media, which barely did anything at all. The fact that it started to consume the ammonia, only to stop dead in its tracks, could be important. Something is preventing you from building up a good ammonia-eating bacteria colony, and we need to find out what it is.

Some questions for you:
What kind of filter are you using?
What filter media do you have in said filter?
Can you test GH/KH? What are those numbers?
What kind of substrate do you have in the tank? New or used?
Are there any live plants? If so, how are they doing?
What decorations do you have in the tank? New or used?
Where did you get your bowfront tank? New or used?
Does your tank water smell like anything unusual?
Does the water have a smell at all?

If I were to venture a guess, without seeing your responses above, I'd say that something in your tank is leeching a substance that is killing off your beneficial bacteria colony. It could also be what killed your first batch of fish.

 

[librarygirl]

Thanks for trying to help. I'll respond to your questions below and put my answers in red:

I must say, your predicament is quite baffling.


My pH is around 7.8, and I was able to successfully fishless cycle my 10g tank, so I don't think the pH is the issue.

You have your heat up to help bacteria growth, which is good. I only had mine at 82 degrees (the max of my digital thermometer), but 85 should be good I think.

You've got the right ammonia to dose with.

My suggestion to you: don't bother testing nitrAtes at all for a while. The fact that you're somehow seeing nitrAtes without any nitrItes doesn't make any sense at all.

What you need to do is isolate the main problem you're having, which is the inability to build up a colony of ammonia-eating bacteria. You added seeded filter media, which barely did anything at all. The fact that it started to consume the ammonia, only to stop dead in its tracks, could be important. Something is preventing you from building up a good ammonia-eating bacteria colony, and we need to find out what it is.

Some questions for you:

What kind of filter are you using?
I'm using the filter and filter pad that came with the tank (Marineland Eclipse 12 bowfront). This is the motor unit it came with. It also has a BioWheel that goes to the right of the filter pad. This is what the filter strainer looks like (attached to a longish plastic tube inside the aquarium and attached to the motor unit)

What filter media do you have in said filter?
The type that came with the aquarium. This is the filter pad that's in there currently (although it's a carbon pad so I did slit the pad and take out most of the carbon when I read that carbon pads need to be replaced often and if I took the carbon out I could keep the filter pad in there indefinitely).

Can you test GH/KH? What are those numbers?
On May 22 I tested GH/KH of my tap water and aquarium water (I can retest again if you think it would help) using the API Gh/KH kit.

For tap water, my GH is 3 and my KH is 2
For the aquarium water on May 22 my GH was 5 and my KH was 4

What kind of substrate do you have in the tank? New or used?
The main substrate on the bottom of the tank is 12 lbs of Marina gravel which was new and added when I started cycling the tank fishless a month ago. As of last night thanks to a local AA member I have a mesh bag filled with about 2 cups of gravel from a seeded tank inside my tank as well.

Are there any live plants? If so, how are they doing?
No, no live plants, too complicated for me lol

What decorations do you have in the tank? New or used?
I bought everything new but they've been in the tank a while now, bought at PetStores, from PetCo and from PetSmart. All fake silk plants and 2 decor pieces. I rinsed all in hot water before putting them in the tank. Although now that you mention it the bottom of one of the decorations has a black paint or coating along the edges of the base that may be peeling off, I saw one or two small pieces of a thin black flaky substance floating in the tank last time I changed the water and it looks like the stuff that's on the bottom of that decoration. I'm assuming though since I bought it at a PetStore in the aquarium section it would be safe for tanks? I'll post a current pic of my tank below.

Where did you get your bowfront tank? New or used?
Bought it new in the box at a local PetSmart.

Does your tank water smell like anything unusual?
Does the water have a smell at all?
This is a hard question. It does smell, yes, but it's hard to pinpoint what it smells like. It's a mix of an earthy smell and a chemical smell, if that makes sense. It's always smelled like this even when I had fish in the tank, although I think now it's a bit stronger. I figured it was the Prime (which on the bottle says can cause a smell) and/or now the pure ammonia.

If I were to venture a guess, without seeing your responses above, I'd say that something in your tank is leeching a substance that is killing off your beneficial bacteria colony. It could also be what killed your first batch of fish.
The more I think about it I think PH shock killed my fish. It was just after a 60% water change. My PH out of the tap is high, about 8.4+. In the tank and after the tap water settles it goes down to 7.4. But I changed the water quickly that day so I'm wondering if it was the stress of the pwc plus the PH shock and maybe any gasses in the tap water that didn't have a chance to vent before going into the tank. That's my best guess at this point as the fish were OK before that last pwc.

Thanks for trying to help, much appreciated!

 

[librarygirl]

id say try the gravel in the filter if it impedes flow place it under filter intake in 14 days we should see something i hope lol test your water in an hour im unsure of my trate levels i pwcd Friday but you never know

Thanks, I'll try putting it into the filter tonight. The thing I hate about the filter mechanism of the tank is that there isn't any room in there! The filter pad it so large it takes up all the room. I'll flatten the mesh bag with your gravel and see if I can lay it inside the filter pad. I didn't' test levels last night, I'll test everything tonight and see where I am. Thanks!

 

[eco23]

Thanks, I'll try putting it into the filter tonight. The thing I hate about the filter mechanism of the tank is that there isn't any room in there! The filter pad it so large it takes up all the room. I'll flatten the mesh bag with your gravel and see if I can lay it inside the filter pad. I didn't' test levels last night, I'll test everything tonight and see where I am. Thanks!

I agree that having the gravel hung near the intake is sufficient. The seeded filter pad is what we really want in the actual filter...that's your money right there

 

[bcurlacher54]

if you are cycling exactly the way it says in the link that eco23 provides, it should work with no problems. my 75 gallon tank cycled perfectly in 21 days doing it that way.

 

[James_in_MN]

What kind of filter are you using?
I'm using the filter and filter pad that came with the tank (Marineland Eclipse 12 bowfront). This is the motor unit it came with. It also has a BioWheel that goes to the right of the filter pad. This is what the filter strainer looks like (attached to a longish plastic tube inside the aquarium and attached to the motor unit)

What filter media do you have in said filter?
The type that came with the aquarium. This is the filter pad that's in there currently (although it's a carbon pad so I did slit the pad and take out most of the carbon when I read that carbon pads need to be replaced often and if I took the carbon out I could keep the filter pad in there indefinitely).

At one point, I bought the Marineland Eclipse 5g Hex tank, and returned it soon afterward. I didn't like the lack of access into the tank (you had to take apart the hood to get into the tank) or the fact that water was getting on the light even though it sat on a protective plastic shield.

I also wasn't much of a fan of the filter or filter media from that kit. The water pours onto the filter media on one side and doesn't seem to effectively use all of the filter pad. It's also flimsy as filter media goes.

Thinking back, I was also trying to fishless cycle the Marineland tank at the time, and it wasn't moving along much at all. I wonder if there's something to that?

What decorations do you have in the tank? New or used?
I bought everything new but they've been in the tank a while now, bought at PetStores, from PetCo and from PetSmart. All fake silk plants and 2 decor pieces. I rinsed all in hot water before putting them in the tank. Although now that you mention it the bottom of one of the decorations has a black paint or coating along the edges of the base that may be peeling off, I saw one or two small pieces of a thin black flaky substance floating in the tank last time I changed the water and it looks like the stuff that's on the bottom of that decoration. I'm assuming though since I bought it at a PetStore in the aquarium section it would be safe for tanks? I'll post a current pic of my tank below.

I would hope that the pet stores would properly test any decorations they sell to make sure nothing toxic could leech from them, but I guess there could be exceptions considering that you already have a deco that's flaking off black paint.

Does your tank water smell like anything unusual?
Does the water have a smell at all?
This is a hard question. It does smell, yes, but it's hard to pinpoint what it smells like. It's a mix of an earthy smell and a chemical smell, if that makes sense. It's always smelled like this even when I had fish in the tank, although I think now it's a bit stronger. I figured it was the Prime (which on the bottle says can cause a smell) and/or now the pure ammonia.

I ask because my tank doesn't smell like much of anything at all. No earthy smell, no chemical smell. I imagine that if I let nitrAtes build up in it, that would change.

The fact that you may have a chemical smell could be something.



In my honest opinion (which you probably won't like), if I were you, I'd consider returning that tank kit and buying something else. Those Marineland kits have filters that I didn't think were much good at all. I'm also not sold on their bio-wheels; I don't believe its surface area can hold a candle to an AquaClear with a heaping handful of ceramic rings.

Even if you can only return it for in-store credit because of how long it is from the date of purchase, it's probably worth it. That kit alone probably cost around as much as a 20g glass tank, a deluxe hood that takes CFL bulbs, and an AC50 filter.

 

[librarygirl]

Thanks James. Maybe you're right. Now that I know a bit more about tanks and filters, I do hate the filter mechanism of this tank and it is hard to access the tank itself. The lid for feeding is located toward the back of the lid which shows most of the filter and BioWheel and doesn't give much room to even feed the fish. But I like the look of the bowfronts themselves. If this last attempt doesn't work I'll have to decide whether to give up having fish all together or look into a better tank. I still have the original box for the 20 gal but I don't think I have the receipt anymore. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

So got home tonight and tested. Wasn't expected any changes (and didn't get any) but I was hopeful anyway:

Ammonia: still about 2-3, which is where it was last night after I redosed.

NitrItes: 0

NitrAtes: still between 10 and 20

PH: still dark blue, off the chart of 7.6

High PH: maybe a shade darker than 7.4, so maybe 7.5

Theoretically if the seeded gravel and filter clipping and argonite was going to work, in how many days should I see SOME change? Could it take a full two weeks to know for sure?

I was planning my stocking, but, I'm stopping that now, probably pointless.