90 gal tank ammonia problems

[limojica]

I made the mistake of washing out some of the sponges in the FX5 filter with water about a week ago. Fluval FX5 is about 12 weeks old and cycled. The tank is more than six months old and completely cycled. The sponges were so dirty I couldn't get them "clean" with the fish tank water so I rinsed them out with water. I have two filters on the tank so I thought I'd still have bacteria in the other filter (AquaClear 110). I have noticed since cleaning the FX5 my ammonia levels are off the chart. I keep changing the water and still have high level (2.0-4.0) of ammonia. I have lost a few fish this week and took some to the fish store, then cleaned the gravel. I still have ammonia! The gravel was so dirty. It was heavily filled with some much food and debris it took buckets and buckets of water changes and there is still some debris left (just a little). I also found two (or more) dead baby fish when I moved the rocks. I always do weekly water changes (25%) and clean the visible gravel but the gravel in the corners under the rocks, etc...was the culprit. So much food and waste was trapped there, the water was brown. I don't know what to do. In the past year I have had hundreds of babies. I usually take them out once they start swimming in population. I may have a heavy loaded tank even with removing 10 large cichlids today but now the fish chase each other since there is more room with the others gone. Seems like a lose lose situation. If I take out more fish (I've had them for over a year) I'll miss them. I am very attached to them all. If I don't remove them, I'll kill them with the ammonia. I've lost three fish in the past few days and I am stressed out. What should I do. Seems like this is all of a sudden. I check the levels weekly and always check again after a water change but this is the first time I've had this problem over a week with a cycled tank. Most of the fish have been with me for over a year. The little ones are babies that just joined over a few months.


The count below on africans is approx.

1 Tilapia Butterkoferi 10-11 inches
1 parrot 6 inches
10 large african cichlids (lake malawi)
15 or so small-medium african cichlids
40 african babies (about)

 

[WendiDell]

From what I read, there are a few reasons why your ammonia would be up.
1. all the excess food and waste left in the corners and under the rocks.

2. If your filters get to dirty, and full of excess food and waste they start to add to the ammonia instead of removing it.

3. the dead bodies that you found emit a ton of ammonia into the water as they rot away.
So basically your water is way out of whack and you need to do some major cleaning. Remove all the decorations so that you can see every inch of the tank and vacuum the gravel until it no longer sucks up anything brown. You may have to do this in sections. First the right side of the tank. Then the next day do the left. When you clean your filters, you should use tank water, but use a brush to scrub of the excess food and fish waste. That way the bacteria stays and the gunk leaves.
After you get your tank cleaned up you will probably go through a mini cycle for a few weeks, so watch your ammonia and nitrAtes closely. You will most likely need to do up to a 50% PWC everyday for a week or so.
After that 20% once or twice a week and scrubbing the filter (in tank water) every 3 months will help prevent this in the future.
I had something similar happen when I tried an UGF, what a mess. once I got rid of the UGF and cleaned up the mess, it took around 10-14 days to get my water back to normal.
Good Luck.

 

[limojica]

Thank you for responding WendiDell. I've been checking the ammonia level and this morning I cleaned some gravel (again, dirty in corners) and changed 40% water. They immediately perked up from the water change. They aren't eating now. They just swim by the food so I'm not going to force them. Seems the food pollutes the water which isn't good since I don't seem to have much bacteria in there. I found another dead baby. Something isn't right in there and I'm hoping it's not a disease. Some of the fish have open wounds and scraps so I know they are fighting. I put in some Melaflex.

I will gravel the sides tonight and tomorrow and pray I don't lose any more fish. And also continue changing the water. Gosh I worked so hard to get my tank under control and to return to the cycling stage is so stressful

I assume UGF is under gravel filter. I was thinking of trying one for this problem. Should I remove the gravel all together? Seems all the debris gets trapped in there. I have lots of rocks and caves for hiding. I usually find the babies in there safe and sound.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Mogurako]

Even though removing the filter sponge and cleaning it in anything but tank water is not recommended I don't think that's where your issue come from.

From the stock list you posted the tank sounds very over stocked and you should probably try to whittle your stock list down to roughly 20-25 ( 15-20 if you want loaches or catfish to help with uneaten food) of the Africans assuming that those are Mbuna. I don't recall seeing how often you feed but I would only feed once a day and skip a day every so often.

I would remove the rock substrate and use sand, it's much easier to keep clean and quickly suck uneaten food and fish poop.

You will more than likely have to do larger water changes than that weekly to get everything under control. I was having to do 50-75% in my 90 pretty much daily/every-other day with eleven 1-2" just to keep ammo down until my filters caught up. Once everything calms down I would go for 40-50% PWC weekly, cichlids are messy.

 

[limojica]

Thank you Mogurako. I knew my stock was overloaded but I seemed to have it under control until I could upgrade. I wanted to get a 150 gal but think I may only be able to get a 125 gal for space reasons. My issue may be trying to get the tank in the house (long story). We got the 90 gal through a window that has now been altered so I am concerned I may not be able to get anything larger in.

This is my first crash . I realize also I will need to remove more fish so it's better I remove them to safety than kill them in the current conditions.

I feed them twice a day and they eat like monsters. I am to blame for overfeeding them too. I put in too much food to try to feed the babies at the bottom. What a mess! Poor fish. The water is seriously poisioned because they are all at the top of the tank and not swimming.

I will do some serious cleaning tonight and hopefully I'll get rid of whatever is hiding in there before I lose any more fish.

 

[WendiDell]

Mbunas are little piggies when it comes to eating. When they are fry and very young Juvi you feed them twice a day. But as they become adults they only need to be fed what they can eat in a maximum 30 seconds, every other day. They will of course eat more than that if you give it to them, but but 30 seconds every other day is sufficient.
It will also eliminate your ammonia problem from rotting food and excess fish waste.
Yes I meant an Under ground filter. Don't waste your money on one, they don't work very well with Mbuna.
No, you need substrate. I use crushed shells/coral, it helps keep the higher pH naturally. You just need to use a gravel vac a little more often and feed less often and you and your fish will be OK.

 

[limojica]

Great advice. Yes, they love to eat and I've been overfeeding them. I will follow all advice and hopefully my tank will get back to normal. I do suspect there is something more I didn't get under all the rocks and trapped in the gravel still causing this trouble. Glad there are these forums! I felt completely lost. Thanks again.

 

[Mogurako]

Great advice. Yes, they love to eat and I've been overfeeding them. I will follow all advice and hopefully my tank will get back to normal. I do suspect there is something more I didn't get under all the rocks and trapped in the gravel still causing this trouble. Glad there are these forums! I felt completely lost. Thanks again.

That's why sand would work out better for you allot easier to clean up.

 

[WendiDell]

Just a few to many

The count below on africans is approx.

1 Tilapia Butterkoferi 10-11 inches
1 parrot 6 inches
10 large african cichlids (lake malawi)
15 or so small-medium african cichlids
40 african babies (about)

I was looking at your list of fish and your correct, you are over stocked. But pt's nothing that can't be fixed.

First, the 40 babies should be in a grow out tank. As an emergency set up for my first batch of unexpected fry (babies) I used a 10g, until I found a 90g w/stand + accessories on craigslist for 149.00. Then I turned one of my 55g tanks into a grow out tank. You'll find that Africa Cichlids breed like rabbits. So another tank for just for fry, will help out a lot.
Second, a little over crowding (especially with females) is a good thing, at least with African Cichlids. They'll do best with a 1:4 male:female ratio. These boys love their little harems. The 1:4 ratio and the slight over stocking helps to keep the aggression down.
So if you where to put the babies in their own tank. Then rehomed the Butterkoferi and the Parrot, you should be able to maintain the rest without to much trouble. Plus fewer fish = lower ammonia levels, which = less time on maintenance and more time enjoying your fish.

 

[limojica]

Yes I agree with placing the babies in another tank. I have a breeder friend who can help me with the male female ratio. I can't tell the difference. I think I have too many males.

I lost another fish today and ran home to clean the tank. I just finished. Took everything out, cleaned the gravel and removed most of it...put a little back until I can get sand. I found several dead babies and lots of debris. I added Smart Start and Stress Zyme. I just checked the ammonia and have .50. I just added Amquel Ammonia remover. I have not fed them. The fish are at the top again! Should I now do a water change? If I do, I don't have anymore chemicals to add. What a cluster!

I feel defeated I have changed the water so much and nothing is working. Understand my cycle is restarting so I will need to behave as if it's a new tank. Tomorrow (if I still have fish left) I will remove some fish and continue with water changes.

 

[Mogurako]

Yes I agree with placing the babies in another tank. I have a breeder friend who can help me with the male female ratio. I can't tell the difference. I think I have too many males.

I lost another fish today and ran home to clean the tank. I just finished. Took everything out, cleaned the gravel and removed most of it...put a little back until I can get sand. I found several dead babies and lots of debris. I added Smart Start and Stress Zyme. I just checked the ammonia and have .50. I just added Amquel Ammonia remover. I have not fed them. The fish are at the top again! Should I now do a water change? If I do, I don't have anymore chemicals to add. What a cluster!

I feel defeated I have changed the water so much and nothing is working. Understand my cycle is restarting so I will need to behave as if it's a new tank. Tomorrow (if I still have fish left) I will remove some fish and continue with water changes.

I wouldn't add any extra chemicals, get some prime water conditioner and it will also help detoxify the ammo. You're probably going to need to do 50-75% PWC daily for awhile until all the levels come back down.

 

[limojica]

OK, thanks. I had to remove the fish tonight. The fish were all at the top of the tank then dropped to the bottom lifeless. What happened...I just don't know. I have another tank 55 gal with a 10-11 inch Tilapia (this one bites and kills) so I dumped the lifeless fish in there and they woke up? I am so confused. Once I removed several fish and some water, the other fish started swimming again. I am going to assume I filled the water too high? I borrowed a 20 gal so I have three tanks running as well as placed a few in my son's 90 gal (with two oscars). Tomorrow I will take a fair amount of fish to the pet store. This is too stressful. No more chemicals OK sounds good. Wondering if mixing the chemicals did this to the tank this time.

 

[WendiDell]

What kind of air stone/bar do you have and what is your water temp.? With all the fish you have in one tank they will use up all the O2 in the water fast and the surface agitation from the filters wouldn't be enough to replenish it.
Mogurako is right about Prime, it's all you'll need with a fish in cycle. Also with a fish in cycle your ammonia needs to be .25ppm or less. When I did my fish in cycle I sometimes had to do 75-80% PWC twice a day. I tested the water every morning and every night and did whatever it took to keep the ammonia below .25ppm.
Don't feel defeated, you just got in over your head. We will help you get back, it's why we're here. Things can crash very quickly but it takes time and hard work for it to get back to normal, but it will get back to normal.
Getting your stock down will help a lot. To much ammonia is being created for the amount of good bacteria you have. Speaking of good bacteria, what are your nitrAte levels, do you have any left? Or is it gone? Are you testing with the API Master test Kit?
I know the last thing you need is to answer a lot of questions while trying to get your tank cycled and not have any more fish die. But the more we know the better our advice will be.

 

[limojica]

I have the air stone with air pump for 100 gal tank. I usually keep the temp at 81 degrees.

I will get some prime over the weekend since none of the local stores have them. I have to go to a PetSmart in another town for it. Until then I have Jungle Holdex Clear (water conditioner) and Nite-Out Nitrifying bacteria (ammonia) that I can use. I am terrified of high ammonia

OK, got the point on changing the water often. I forgot how much I did in the beginning. I test every morning and evening and have been changing the water depending on the reading.

This is my first crash and I am so confused. I really appreciate all the feedback and help to get me through this. The fish are sitting at the top again. I was so afraid they'd collapse again, this morning I took six large ones to the pet shop At least they are safe there in good water. I raised them from babies so it wasn't easy. Hope they'll be OK in their new home.

I checked ammonia and nitrite levels this evening and they were both 0 however I did treat the tank with ammonia detox this morning with a 10% water change. I haven't fed them and they don't come to the glass like they used to. All they do is sit up at the top.

I have the Tilapia in there with all the babies, two large africans and aprox 15 small to medium sizes africans. Fish are supposed to be swimming not hanging out in the tank. I don't get what is wrong. I have the Fluval FX5 with bio balls, and the Aqueon 110 running on the tank.

I only have the individual testers...ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PH, and phosphates.

OK, makes sense about how much bacteria I have in relation to waste level. Gosh...what have I done

 

[WendiDell]

turn your heat down to 78* and add more air. When all the fish are hanging out at the surface, it's usually to get closer to the air. But until you can add more air lower you water level just a little so that the filters can splash and churn up the water a lot more.
I have the same problem living in a small town, I have to travel a few towns over to get most everything.
Stop beating yourself up. When Cichlids start having fry, it easy to get overloaded with fish. They seem to come faster than we can get rid of them.
One thing I did to make sure I don't have any dead babies in the main tank, is that as soon as I notice one of my females holding I put her in a breeding net until she spits out the fry.Then I put Mom back in with the other fish and let the fry grow in the net. Once they are big enough they go in the grow out tank. Then I start looking for homes. But at no time are fry ever born in my main tank. The breeder nets I bought on Amazon for $6.00 each. I bought 3 and they are in use almost constantly. But I've never had any dead baby bodies.
If you got the ammonia down to 0ppm your going in the right direction. What is your nitrAte level these days?
Also, since you have to drive a bit of a distance to get Prime and I'm sure a few other things, take a peek at Amazon.com pet dept. They have great prices on test kits & Prime in bulk which you may need for a little while until we get this straightened out.

 

[limojica]

OK, will turn the heat down and get another air stone and pump. I changed the water (40-50%) yesterday (and didn't add any chemicals) even though ammonia and nitrites tested at 0 and it seemed to help. The fish moved from the top of the tank and started to swim around. This morning I tested for ammonia and there was 1.0 so I changed the water again (40-50%) and again didn't add any chemicals and they were swimming around and weren't breathing heavy. Seems to be working this way. I will just change the water as much as I need to until things settle down. This is working...thank goodness. It seems when you add chemicals they hide the ammonia which is good but not good because it also hides any issues that could be resolved with a water change.

I am so clueless with the who is having the babies. There seems to be a mixture of babies...different colors and types. I can't even tell which ones are the females. I've only once noticed one with a full mouth and by the time I noticed again, her mouth was empty. I have lots of caves so I suspect this is the breeding area. I built the caves from the chasing and fighting so the fish would have a place to rest. I guess it's working

I am going to buy the large JUMBO Prime from Amazon...and some extras so I will have just in case also the net. Good idea. It's amazing what water can do. Water changes everything. Some fresh water can turn a deadly tank into a safe tank in a matter of seconds. I am so happy I am making ground even though the ammonia is high. I am at least resolving one issue with the air/oxygen. The last time they were at the top of the tank like that they collapsed and fell to the bottom of the tank. It was scary!

Tonight when I get in I will check the levels and change the water if needed (I suspect I will have ammonia). I'll lower the temp and put in another air stone. My fingers are crossed. Hoping the bacteria will return soon.

Thanks again for your help!

 

[Bl80]

Lnt.com has great deals on prime too and I had free shipping and like 15% off... ( linens n things) I buy ALOT of my fish stuff from them....

 

[limojica]

Keep losing the babies. Lost three+ yesterday. They are lifeless and float up to the top. Not sure what that means. Ammonia level continues to be high 1.0 + and I am changing 50%+ water twice daily. My Tilapia is not eating but the smaller fish are. I am going to "dump" some more fish out and donate to the petstore until the levels come down. The tank is half empty practically and the ammonia is out of control. I am in "cycle" mode again so only will have a few fish in there for now. Hope this doesn't take too long. Really don't want to lose any more fish.

 

[limojica]

Ammonia level still high. Making 50-60% daily water changes.

 

[WendiDell]

Ammonia level still high. Making 50-60% daily water changes.

Ammonia at 1.0ppm is very toxic, it burns their gills causing scar tissue, which inhibits the O2 exchange through the water. This is of course worse for younger fish.
If your still getting readings of 1.0ppm I would do 2 50% back to back water changes. Get that ammonia down to a tolerable level. 12 hours in toxic, even .5ppm, water is enough to kill even hardy fish let alone the babies.
For now the high ammonia levels are a bigger threat to the life of your fish, than any possible stress caused by PWC. The ammonia levels really need to stay below .25ppm and 1 50% PWC a day won't be enough.