Absolute Newbie, looking for help

[XimeD]

Hi everyone,

So, I am new to this hobby and unfortunately followed my LFS advice and did pretty much EVERYTHING wrong!! Thought being a chemist would help but found that not really when I didn't do my research properly. Here's the story.......

Got a 20gal aqueon starter kit from the store, waited 4 days before getting fish then got (as per their suggestion) 1 pleco, 2 giant danios and 3 redtail tinfoil barbs as starter fish. Which I now know are going to get WAY to big for my 20gal so I will probably a) get a bigger tank in the future or b) find them a new home.

Everything went relatively well the first month, I was doing weekly 25% PWCs to keep ammonia down but my tank was not cycling. Then, foolish me, I go to the store and ask for advice, the guy there says to stop doing PWCs because that meant my tank would not cycle (now I know this is not true) and use Ammo-Lock instead (which later I read can stall the cycling) and feed fish every 3 days (probably only good advice they gave).

A month later (and several trips to LFS to double check because what I was doing felt wrong) my ammonia is through the roof (at least 8ppm, highest reading on my API liquid test kit), fish are looking very stressed, tank is filthy (algae everywhere, dont know what kind but looked redish) and I decide to disregard all LFS advice and do a 50% PWC.

Here's what I did:
50% PWC
Scrubbed all decorations
Vacuumed gravel
Changed filter cartdrigde (yes I now know this was wrong, but it was really clogged and I didn't know to rinse it in old tank water)

Lost one of my tinfoil barbs right after PWC

Since then I have done 3 more 25% PWC at 24 hr intervals but ammonia still reads at 8ppm(or higher since that is my highest reading). I also read that after adding ammo-lock, ammonia will still show in test kit but not be toxic to fish, I think that is probably the only reason my other 5 fish are still alive.

Tanks specs: (as of this morning)
pH 7.4 (I know this is on the high end but that is what my tap water is at and I only add API stress-coat before it goes in the tank, I am doing daily 25% PWC so I figure I shouldnt mess with the pH until I get that ammonia down)
ammonia: at least 8ppm (not all of this live NH3)
NO2 and NO3 - zero
alkalinity and hardness - dont know, ordered API master test kit, expecting it in a few days

Other:
Filter: Marineland penguin biowheel 150
Fish: 1 small pleco, 2 small giant danios, 2 small redtail tinfoil barbs
Plants: 1 anubia, 2 amazon sword, 1 moneywart, 1 bamboo

Please Help!!!!! How often can I do PWCs to get that ammonia down? I got some of Microbelift Special-Blend and Nite-out II to help my tank cycle but I haven't added anything yet I figured I would get the ammonia down first.

Also, any advice on these microbelift products are they any good?

-The Newbie

 

[melosu58]

Going to move this to the General FW discussion where more people will see it.

 

[XimeD]

Thanks!

 

[coolchinchilla]

That is incredibly high ammonia! Have you checked your tap water for ammonia? pH is probably just fine for the fish. Don't worry about the pH for now.

 

[dkpate]

Like Cool said, pH is fine, the fish will adjust.
You can do as many partial water changes as you need to. You can do one at 3pm and another one at 4pm, etc., if you need to. I bought the fish and tank first like you did, and I had to do 1-2, 50-70% pwc's every single day for a month.
Are you shaking the bottles of the test kit up enough? 8ppm is ALOT and I don't even know if the Ammo Lock would take away that much. Are you using a liquid test kit? I recommend Prime dechlorinator, and if you read the bottle, you will see all it does. I used it to help cycle my tank.

 

[XimeD]

The test kit I am using is the liquid API ammonia and ammonium, with plenty of shaking.

Tap water tests at 0.25ppm ammonia and at 0ppm 15min after adding stress coat.

Also, Ammo-Lock will only take out 1ppm per dosage, but I had been adding it for a month, so perhaps a lot of it is complexed with the ammo-lock.

Thanks for the suggestions, I will do PWCs pretty much every hour until I get it down and then keep doing them as often as necessary until the tank cycles.

-XimeD

 

[bluerose]

You can do a 75% PWC even if you want... you could also remove the fish to a smaller container (use ~50% tank water), do a 100% change, and re-acclimate the fish. With the ammonia as high as it is, you're either getting a false reading due to the Ammo-Lock and can't accurately keep tabs on your cycle, or the ammonia is just insanely high and your fish are seriously suffering.

I would probably do a 100% change, myself, to make it easier.

 

[XimeD]

So, if I want to do a 100% WC I am not clear whether I should be moving my fish to a container that is 50% the size of my tank filled with 50% of my tank water (that would be 10g since my tank is 20g) or if I sould move them to another container (say 5g, whichis what I have at home right now) filled with 50% tank water (2.5g) and 50% treated tap water.

Also I normally dont warm the water before adding it to the aquarium because tap water is 72-76F (usually 74F) and my tank is at 77-78F. If I am going to do a 100% WC I would warm the water to 78F then add the fish, does that sound right?

Also, should I use the floating bag method to acclimate the fish to the "new" tank? And if so, would a large ziplock bag do? or should I go to the LFS and ask them for bags? I am not sure whether the ziplock would not leach anything.

Finally, maybe a 75% PWC would be less stressful for fish? Though probably the ammonia is the most stress right now anyway.....

 

[dkpate]

When I do a 100% change, I take out 50%, put 50% back in (new water), and then take 50% out again, then refill. That way I don't have to take the fish out. I do this every week with my bettas. This way you don't take the chance of your good bacteria dying.

 

[bluerose]

That's actually not a 100% change, dkpate, for the sake of being picky. 50% of the second PWC (25% of tank volume) is the fresh water you just did a PWC with; so 25% of the water you remove then is old water, leaving 25% in the tank (being that 50% of the water in the tank at the time of the second PWC is old water). AKA, it probably approximates a 75% PWC in terms of pollution levels.

For a 100% pwc, remove the fish to a smaller container (5gal is fine for a short period), change the water in the tank, and drip acclimate; there's an article on here about how to do it. Simply floating the bags only matches temperature. It's no more stressful on the fish than being purchased from the fish store, but without much of a pH swing and minimal travel time.

 

[dkpate]

Well, it will still get your ammonia down without stressing the fish by taking them out.

 

[XimeD]

So, after a 75% PWC my ammonia is "down" to 4ppm and pH is 7.6. Will do another 75% PWC in a few hours, hopefully that will bring my ammonia down to 1ppm.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions

-Ximena

 

[jessibell]

If I have to do a huge water change, I take out most of the water and leave a couple inches in for the fish to swim in, then use an aquarium thermometer to get just the exact same temperature water out of the tap by adjusting the hot and cold, then I fill up a bunch of clean milk cartons, treat the water, and add it in slowly so as not to create too much current (a siphon hose works good) that way the water is the exat same temperature and shouldn't cause the fish any temperature shock.

 

[XimeD]

If I have to do a huge water change, I take out most of the water and leave a couple inches in for the fish to swim in, then use an aquarium thermometer to get just the exact same temperature water out of the tap by adjusting the hot and cold, then I fill up a bunch of clean milk cartons, treat the water, and add it in slowly so as not to create too much current (a siphon hose works good) that way the water is the exat same temperature and shouldn't cause the fish any temperature shock.

The temperature and treating was pretty much what I ended up doing, I used the bowl at the bottom of the tank (like when I filled the tank the first time) to avoid strong currents. My fish are doing much better now, but I am still doing daily 50% PWC to keep the ammonia down.

My nitrates/nitrites kit should arrive tuesday, I'll be able to know more about my cycle then, but, like I said my fish are much much happier and now I know to keep my ammonia down and not to listen to idiots at petco.

Thanks for the advice

I'll keep posting.......the cycle saga lol

 

[dkpate]

Glad to hear they are doing better!!! And kudos for you for keeping them happy with all the water changes, and not giving up.

 

[jessibell]

LOL water changes will eventually become part of your daily life, you will do it in your sleep

 

[XimeD]

All right, my is ammonia finally down to 0.25ppm, but still doing those daily 50% PWC.

I got much faster now so it only takes me 30mins now =) I don't have a python yet and probably wont get one because I like to leave my tap water for a few hours to let the dechlorinator act (I am now using Prime since I was running out of stress coat and I like it much better)

I did a little dechlorinator test with stresscoat, prime and tetra Aquasafe. My tap water tests 0.25-0.50ppm of ammonia prior to conditioning.

I took 3 different buckets and added a dose of each dechlorinator, after an hour they all tested 0.25ppm (that's why I don't want to get a python, looks like they need some time to act). So I added another dose to each bucket and after another hour only the one with Prime tested 0ppm ammonia. So I have a winner, I am a prime convert now =)

Looking forward to my test kit arriving tomorrow, so I can see what my nitrites and nitrates are doing (yeah I know, they'll probably be 0)

Also, my pH is 7.4 on the Mardel live pH meter and 7.6 on API liquid test kit. I'll have a more accurate value tomorrow (will use an analytical pH meter, just for kicks - to see which method is more accurate).

Everything I've read points to keeping the pH constant and my tap water has a pH of 7.6, so I won't mess with my pH until I'm cycled, if at all. I do want to add cardinal tetras at one point and I know they like acidic water, but I am not sure how to adjust pH without affecting alkalinity (ordered API liquid gH and kH test kit too). I'll probably start a new thread on that once I've read some more.

Once again, thanks everyone for all the advice.

This forum is awesome =)

-Ximena

 

[XimeD]

Here's some pics........ these are from before my barb died bawl, new pics coming up soon

 

[dkpate]

Even if you are using Prime, you will get false positive readings for ammonia. The Prime only "binds" to the ammonia, and makes it non-toxic, it doesn't actually remove it.
I use my Python, empty 1/2 the tank, pour in the correct amount of Prime, and fill back up. Been doing this for a year or so, and everything is good.

 

[brimac41]

I too use a Python and have for years with no ill effects . It does not take a few hours for Prime to work , just a few seconds and it is done because Prime acts pretty much instantly .