Amazing adolescent angelfish!

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Kelly5978

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Just had to share this odd, but amazing experience! My angelfish wigglers started free swimming today. I plan to move them to their own tank shortly. They are currently in the main tank with their parents, with only a divider protecting them from the other inhabitants. As predicted, a few have wandered to the other side of the divider :(. I watched my adolescent marble angelfish put 3 in her mouth, with no way to help them. But....as I watched....the marble tried to spit the babies back to the parents! She keeps going sideways and attacking any fish (all are twice her size) that dares come near the divider! Then, she tries to spit them back to the parents over and over again. Has anyone else had this type of experience? I'm guessing this female marble is gonna make a great mom, as she's already defending babies....that aren't even hers!
 
Just had to share this odd, but amazing experience! My angelfish wigglers started free swimming today. I plan to move them to their own tank shortly. They are currently in the main tank with their parents, with only a divider protecting them from the other inhabitants. As predicted, a few have wandered to the other side of the divider :(. I watched my adolescent marble angelfish put 3 in her mouth, with no way to help them. But....as I watched....the marble tried to spit the babies back to the parents! She keeps going sideways and attacking any fish (all are twice her size) that dares come near the divider! Then, she tries to spit them back to the parents over and over again. Has anyone else had this type of experience? I'm guessing this female marble is gonna make a great mom, as she's already defending babies....that aren't even hers!

Hi,
No replies - that's a shame. This is very interesting behaviour from an angel fish.
It is thought that many commercially bred angels lack the urge to care for their babies because they were themselves hatched and raised away from parents, so don't 'learn' the skill. To see a young fish apparently caring for the fry of another pair is amazing. It would be most interesting to know if this has ever been witnessed either in captivity or in wild fish.... you may have a 'first' !

Well done for observing it and thanks for sharing :)
 
It'd be interesting to know if spawning and fry raising behaviours were innate or learned with cichlid species (sorry, including angels, kribs and rams into this) is she still showing this behaviour? Are they a family group? Is the marble related to the mated pair at all?
 
It'd be interesting to know if spawning and fry raising behaviours were innate or learned with cichlid species (sorry, including angels, kribs and rams into this) is she still showing this behaviour? Are they a family group? Is the marble related to the mated pair at all?

Don't be sorry - they are all cichlids :D
 
The marble showed that behavior the entire 3 days the fry swam with their parents on the other side of the divider. She acted like a mother....going sideways and nailing ANY fish who came near the divider. The marble is the smallest angel in the tank of 6 adults. I believe she is just a runt (explanation for my belief to follow). The odd part was, at one point, she slipped through the side of the divider (as I said, she's quite small), and the parents almost killed her. Apparently, they don't want her help. I managed to get her back to the other side, but instead of acting hurt or angry, she took up her post as "protector" even more fiercely! She did not come from the same breeder, so she's no relation to the parents. Actually, I've had the marble the longest. She just never grew larger than half-dollar size. She shows no signs of Illness, and in fact is now showing her own breeding tube. Unfortunately, no male has shown interest. I have 3 pair of breeding angels (every 10 days like clockwork). I also have 2 pair of breeding rams. I understand that they are just fish, with instincts, but....they definitely show individual behaviors! I raised the black/gold pair from little adolescents. I did not know they were paired until I saw eggs the first time, because I never saw the lip-locking, crazy fighting, that I was told pair's do. They swam together, cleaned spots together, and to this day....I've never seen the male peck the female. He follows her like a puppy, let's her peck the crap out of him when she gets angry, and does nothing but try to kill anyone who comes near her or the eggs. They did not even try to eat their eggs on the first spawn. The eggs all turned white, but they had free swimming by their third try. The black mom gets "depressed" if her babies don't make it. She sulks around, hides, and doesn't eat much after they've passed. She only comes out to "visit" the spots where they were,..to make sure they're not there....and goes back to sulking until her belly starts growing again about 3 days later. Then she resurfaces like a fish on a mission. My white pair had been breeding before I purchased them. I tried leaving the eggs with them the first 2 times. The first....the male ate them. The second, neither seemed to know what to do. The female kept fanning, but would leave the eggs to go fight with the male, and be pissed when she returned and saw that a denison barb had eaten some....which led to her pecking at the male even more. They were used to having the eggs pulled. I don't think they can learn parenting skills after a year of not parenting. My male ram is down right mean. He almost kills the female every spawn. I've yet to see eggs make it over 24 hours. I thought this was just the german blue ram "way", yet my more recent pair are gentle and nice to each other. They have eggs now. I'm curious to see how it pans out. And, then there's "shadow".... The little protecter marble. I'm sorry for the long response, but watching their behavior just fascinates me. All fish are not the same. Period! Unfortunately, I am learning right along with my fish. Each angel pair has had 3 spawns each. The furthest I've gotten is 3 days free swimming. On the spawn discussed in this thread, the mom kept the fry in the middle/top section of the tank, and taught them to stay away from the sides of the divider. They all had orange BBS filled bellies. On the 3rd day, she took them to a corner at the bottom of the tank....I'm assuming to rest. I checked on them at 2 am...and they were still hovering in the corner. When I woke up in the morning and turned on lights, the mom FREAKED! The fry were gone. She frantically searched, and pulled 6 from the rocks. I pulled the 6, thinking they were getting sucked into the rocks? But they died within 24 hours of putting them in the fry tank (with water siphoned to from the main tank). They swam after the move, but became belly sliders after 1 night, and died. I pull the white pairs eggs (following good instructions about methelyne blue, air stone placement, and heat. For some reason, the white pair's eggs are much bigger than the black/gold pair, anyone know why that would be? I've gotten wigglers, but they never swim. I'm not sure if I have a parasite at the bottom of my main tank (that killed the fry when they went to the bottom, or if I have my heat too high, or they're just not strong genes, or what mistakes I'm making, but I learn from every spawn, and won't give up until I get it right! Breeding (and the behaviors) fascinates me! So, sorry again for my big response, but I think it's all so interesting!
 
Don't apologise for that response! The behaviour is fascinating!! I'm going to guess (and I do mean guess, this is purely hyperthetical) that the marble female (shadow was it?) is fighting fit and ready to breed, but in the absence of a partner, is just as happy to brood and protect other pairs fry. This has to be an example of innate brooding behaviour brought on by a readiness to spawn and possibly seeing the fry. It may also be an unmated territory thing. Who knows, I'm guessing either way! Has anyone ever bred angels in a tank with other angels? I've kept same sex pairs before but never bred them.
Curious that the white angels eggs are larger. Are the fish themselves larger?
 
I think you're right about shfow (the protector marble). I have multiple tanks, and even more fry tanks. My favorite pair of angels have their own 20g, but the 2 other pair (black/gold and white/golden white) share a 55g with 2 denison barbs, shadow (the marble) and a striped veil, who recently "came into his own" and has "stolen" the female of the white pair from her white male partner! Lol. I swear, it's like a soap opera. Whenever eggs are laid, I use a divider to keep the barbs and other angels away. During the spawn I wrote about In this thread, I forgot to add another interesting point....both pair laid eggs within days of each other, but shadow did not seem to care at all about the white pair's eggs. The black/gold pair laid their eggs first, and I had them divided off with their wigglers when the white pair laid their eggs. I planned to pull the white pair's eggs (as the male ate them the first time) but they chose the filter as their spawning site....and I wasn't willing to remove it. That was their second spawn (in my tank), and they didn't eat them....but just fought with each other and acted unsure about what to do. To answer your other question...they ARE bigger and older than the black/gold pair. I guess that's probably why the eggs are bigger. I know the white female spawned for the previous owner many times (and he never left the eggs with her). Anyways, the white female is quite pushy and "pecky". I'm sure shadow protected the wigglers through the 3 day free swimming phase of the black/gold pair because they were moving. But, I have to wonder if she would have done the same for the white female, as none of the fish like her much. The black female is very laid back (except when spawning), so I just wonder....
I hate to throw this in, because I love all the feedback about behavior, but I'm really frustrated. My black/gold pair laid eggs for the fourth time 2 days ago. Every spawn they lay more eggs, and the babies seem to live a little longer (the mom and I are both learning how to do a better job each time). Like clockwork, she laid her 400 eggs, and began fanning like crazy. The pair look like old pros now. He follows right behind her, sometimes going over the spot again to be sure. Some eggs always turn white. But it seems to be less each time. However, I noticed yesterday that quite a few eggs were white, and the mom wasn't picking them out! I came home from work today to find only about 60 of the eggs still on the leaf. She had picked out the white, dead ones. I see black dots (eyes) and a few tails already, so I know they are fertilized. The only thing I can think of that is different from the last spawn is the use of seachem paraguard. Last time, my striped veil had something bugging him, and I didn't stop the treatment when the through the egg/wiggler/swimming stages. This time, there was nothing but clean water (0 ammoni/nitrites, 5 nitrates, ph 7, gh 7, kh 4). I even added a sponge filter to the pairs divided side, that I planned to move with the fry to their grow out tank. So....should I pull the remaining eggs and dose m.blue? Or add paraguard (I know it has malachite green....which may have stopped the fungused eggs from spreading last time) to the main tank, or just leave them....and look at this as another lesson? I just can't figure it out! I feel like I'm missing some key ingredient. I keep thinking it's the water. I don't use carbon, but I learned recently that the RO water I purchase is put through carbon filtering. I use purigen, nitra zorb, and now phos zorb....but still have brown AND green algae. I want to raise these babies soooo badly, but they don't survive with the parents, OR if I pull them. Surely I don't have 2 pair of "bad" angelfish??? Who just can't reproduce! I'm stuck. I can't fix it if I can't see the problem. Any advice is welcome.
 
I had one last thought....I turned the air stones on both sides of my tank off about 2 months ago. I learned that turning them off lowered the ph and created a better breeding environment for angelfish. In fact, my angels started laying eggs the next day. I left them off, as the angels seemed happier without the bubbles. I have an aqua clear 300 HOB running in the middle, a 20g smaller whisper internal filter on one side, and a small sponge filter on the other side. However, there is very little surface agitation. Could my tank lack oxygen, and more eggs died this time due to the lack of oxygen? Will an air pump, that only creates surface agitation put oxygen in the waster without raising the ph?
 
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