Ammonia in tank before fishless cycle

[nanofish]

I ended up having to work late so I never got a chance to go to Petsmart. Might even be a few days until I can because of all the hours I'm working coming up.

I was thinking things over, trying to go over what is know for certain just to see what is left. I'm going to try and be all scientific like and list everything even obvious stuff so that my reasons can be checked.

Not caused by:
The sand, DW, or heater (all were added or replaced after ammonia first rose)
Also not caused by tapwater, water conditioner, or even my water bucket. The bucket of water test in the kitchen ruled out all three as the cause.

Inconclusive:
The filter and tank were both cleaned which probably lowered the odds (low to begin with) but didn't rule them out completely. This should also fit the plants and old DW since the deep cleaning would have removed any lingering traces I somehow missed.
The ammonia test itself since I haven't had someone else verify. The fact that I can get different results (for instance out of the tap or after a large water change) makes me think it unlikely.

Untested:
Something from outside the system. Cat/ferret hair, smoke, dust, more suicide moths, whatever.

Unless I missed something that last one has the greatest possibility remaining (ruling out some sort of worldwide fish conspiracy designed to bring down their owners). I figured I might else well try another experiment. I've placed the lid on the tank, closing it off, and am also running an air purifer. I'm too tired to do a massive water change tonight since i have to carry water upstairs to do that. I will do that after work tomorrow. That should allow me to lower the ammonia enough to see if it rises again. Did I forget else I could test anything?

 

[librarygirl]

Wow this is....weird.

So the filters were new when you bought them? Did you rinse out the media in water before putting it into the tank to remove anything that may have gotten in there during manufacture? Probably a longshot but still.....

You could isolate everything into its own bucket and test each one. Put treated tap water into buckets and into one bucket at the DW, add some sand to another bucket, your filter media into another bucket, etc. and test the water in each bucket and see what the results are.

Something has to be causing it (especially since you've ruled out ammonia in your tap water), we just have to figure out what.

 

[nanofish]

I did a 50% water change yesterday and immediately afterwards got a reading of 4.0 ppm ammonia. 24 hours later and I'm getting the same reading. Considering that the tank went from empty to 8.0 in a little over a day I'm thinking this is a good thing?

 

[nanofish]

Wow this is....weird.

So the filters were new when you bought them? Did you rinse out the media in water before putting it into the tank to remove anything that may have gotten in there during manufacture? Probably a longshot but still.....

You could isolate everything into its own bucket and test each one. Put treated tap water into buckets and into one bucket at the DW, add some sand to another bucket, your filter media into another bucket, etc. and test the water in each bucket and see what the results are.

Something has to be causing it (especially since you've ruled out ammonia in your tap water), we just have to figure out what.

Yes ma'am the filter was bought new and I did rinse it, the replacemtn pipe I had to buy, and the extra physical and bio media. I'm not running any chemical filteration.

The ammonia was a problem before this set of DW or the new sand was in. That's why I feel kind of certain they aren't the cause. Testing the media would be something to consider though. I'm a bit nervous about doing that though for some reason. The cycle at least was progressing before.

 

[librarygirl]

This has been going on for a while, at least since the post was started at the end of August. Have you tested any other levels in the tank (nitrite, nitrate)? I'm curious if it's cycling from the ammonia reading in the water.

 

[eco23]

This is a thread I NEED to know the answer to, lol. It's driving me nuts. You said the filter media is the only thing that hasn't been changed? Is it made out of raw shrimp or something? Haha.

I'm also interested in seeing if you have no2 or no3...but I'm still leery about stocking this thing until we find the cause...even if it basically auto-cycles.

There's another forum where they literally have a PHD microbiologist on standby. It's called "ask the doctor" or something like that. I'm not sure this fits into his realm...but it might be worth a shot if we can't reach a conclusion.

 

[nanofish]

If this is driving you guys nuts you should see me lol

I've been kind of lacking with keeping my log. I'd go stretches without testing as I tried to figure out what was going on. The first entry was on 8-24. On 8-30 I had 2.0 NO2. No further entry until 9-14. In between was the change in DW and plants dying. I had tried to wait things out. On 9-14 I did a 90% PWC. I know I tested for NO3 before changing the water and found them present but apparently didn't bother to write it down since I assumed I'd be starting the cycle anew. I cleaned the filter at this time too.
Ammonia and NO2 readings
9-14 2.0 5.0
9-16 4.0 5.0
9-18 4.0 5.0
9-21 8.0 .25

I once again stopped the log (yeah bad i know) because I once again waited, trying to figure out what to do and then redid the tank. I haven't tested for either since. Guess I should get to that to see if the cycle is still going.

 

[eco23]

I don't think we can stock this thing until we figure out what's going on. Asking a bio-filter to handle 8+ppm of mystery ammonia and a full tank of fish might be too much. Plus, with this degree of no2 and no3...you should have the ammonia dropping, not rising. That tells me the tank isn't capable of supporting enough beneficial bacteria to handle the ammonia input.

For this amount of ammonia, it either has to be added (by a municipality or your bottle), or some sort of decaying organic matter is causing it. Since it's 0ppm from your faucet (city water, right?) and nobody in your family is a comedian...it seems something has to be decaying. I just can't imagine something being in your filter media (that's the only thing that's the same, right?) creating that much of a source.

You sure nobody is messing with you? Dog peeing in the tank?

 

[nanofish]

8-24 I recorded the tapwater ammonia as .25. When I did the bucket test (apparently i didn't bother writing a date just times) after adding prime to the tapwater is 1.0, four hours later .50.

Only thing the same is the filter media and don't worry I have no plans to get any fish until this settles down. I'm not even willing to risk getitng more plants at this point.

I just tested the NO2 and NO3 and they are definitely present. I think I'm looking at 5.0 and a super bright red that's 160 ppm. I really wish I know what was going on right now.

 

[librarygirl]

This is weird. I think you may have beat my record of all time most confusing and frustrating fishless cycle (not longest though yet lol).

The only other two things I'd do would be to throw the filter w/ media into a bucket with Prime treated water and test it just to see if there's something that is leeching from the filters or media somehow.

The other maybe last option would be to strip down the whole thing, return the tank if you can, and exchange it for a new setup and see if the same thing happens.

 

[nanofish]

This is weird. I think you may have beat my record of all time most confusing and frustrating fishless cycle (not longest though yet lol).

The only other two things I'd do would be to throw the filter w/ media into a bucket with Prime treated water and test it just to see if there's something that is leeching from the filters or media somehow.

The other maybe last option would be to strip down the whole thing, return the tank if you can, and exchange it for a new setup and see if the same thing happens.

I did a strip down just 4 days ago though. And umm well managed to scratch the tank slightly removing the old sand so no way I can just exchange it.

 

[eco23]

Are you on city water or well water? It may be worth doing the bucket test again...this time for longer. We want to make sure we can 100% rule out the water as a source...for a couple reasons.

 

[librarygirl]

Are you on city water or well water? It may be worth doing the bucket test again...this time for longer. We want to make sure we can 100% rule out the water as a source...for a couple reasons.

True, good idea. It has to be either the water, the filters, or something in/on the tank itself doing it.

 

[nanofish]

It's city water and it has chloramine if that matters in this instance. How long should I test this for?

 

[eco23]

It's city water and it has chloramine if that matters in this instance. How long should I test this for?

Sorry, I should probably read back through the beginning...but I'd leave it out for at least as long as it takes for the tank to start showing levels after it's filled. Honestly, as long as you've got room for a bucket to be sitting around...the longer you can leave it out and keep testing it the better.

 

[nanofish]

Sorry, I should probably read back through the beginning...but I'd leave it out for at least as long as it takes for the tank to start showing levels after it's filled. Honestly, as long as you've got room for a bucket to be sitting around...the longer you can leave it out and keep testing it the better.

If it can stay covered then I can leave it out indefinitely. Considering the tank was emptied and then maybe 30 hours later was reading 8.0 it didn't take long to rise the last time. I at least have some form of cycle going though correct? Even if it is super screwed up and scary. I need some hope here.

 

[eco23]

If it can stay covered then I can leave it out indefinitely. Considering the tank was emptied and then maybe 30 hours later was reading 8.0 it didn't take long to rise the last time. I at least have some form of cycle going though correct? Even if it is super screwed up and scary. I need some hope here.

My biggest concern was that you were on a well and there was some sort of decay happening. I work in water purification, and you'd be surprised how many people have stories of different animals finding their way into the well and decaying...it's not a pretty (or healthy) story. City water should eliminate something like that, but it doesn't hurt to test.

30 minutes to get up to 8ppm??!! Geez. Do you know how much pure ammonia it takes to get up to 8ppm? A lot! There's a hardcore source of ammonia somewhere in your tank. You said the DW wasn't in the tank when that happened, right? You're not like spraying the glass down with Windex, are you?

There is cycling going on. In fact, if you can find the ammonia source and remove it, you may already have enough beneficial bacteria to keep a tank stable. The problem is that the bacteria can not keep up with the ammonia being put in. If the bacteria could handle it...it'd be at zero. The fact it's not shows it's overwhelmed, and it's possible that a bio-filter is not capable of growing large enough in your aquarium to ever handle it. Technically there's only a certain amount of surface area for the beneficial bacteria. It's not an infinite # that can grow in there.

Bottom line...we need to find the ammonia source if anything is ever going to be swimming in there.

 

[nanofish]

My biggest concern was that you were on a well and there was some sort of decay happening. I work in water purification, and you'd be surprised how many people have stories of different animals finding their way into the well and decaying...it's not a pretty (or healthy) story. City water should eliminate something like that, but it doesn't hurt to test.

30 minutes to get up to 8ppm??!! Geez. Do you know how much pure ammonia it takes to get up to 8ppm? A lot! There's a hardcore source of ammonia somewhere in your tank. You said the DW wasn't in the tank when that happened, right? You're not like spraying the glass down with Windex, are you?

There is cycling going on. In fact, if you can find the ammonia source and remove it, you may already have enough beneficial bacteria to keep a tank stable. The problem is that the bacteria can not keep up with the ammonia being put in. If the bacteria could handle it...it'd be at zero. The fact it's not shows it's overwhelmed, and it's possible that a bio-filter is not capable of growing large enough in your aquarium to ever handle it. Technically there's only a certain amount of surface area for the beneficial bacteria. It's not an infinite # that can grow in there.

Bottom line...we need to find the ammonia source if anything is ever going to be swimming in there.

No, no 30 HOURS or less. It could be anywhere in that less because I thought "hey I cleaned this tank good so no way I'll have a problem"...oops. I'm testing every 24 hours now.

I'm trying the lid because the tank sat in the room empty for two days while I let the bleach air dry. I of course was puffing away and need to quit that but I thought maybe if smoke covered the walls while it was empty? I know you didn't think so but we've tried so much already.

No windex. I haven't even cleaned all the many water spots off the front of the tank. The first time the ammonia rose there was now DW. There has been since then though, 2 different sets all while the ammonia rose.

 

[eco23]

Oops, my eyes work faster than my brain sometimes, lol. Still...30 hours is freaking fast.

I'm stumped. Believe me when I say I'm interested...I'm just clueless at the same time. I hate for you to go ditching all your filter media since it's got so much bacteria established in it.

Okay, new idea! Take out the filter media and throw it in the bucket of water you're filling up (keep it wet so it stays viable). Completely change the water in your tank...and see if it still climbs. Also test the bucket obviously. We've really just got to try and take a scientific approach and eliminate variables one by one.

 

[nanofish]

Oops, my eyes work faster than my brain sometimes, lol. Still...30 hours is freaking fast.

I'm stumped. Believe me when I say I'm interested...I'm just clueless at the same time. I hate for you to go ditching all your filter media since it's got so much bacteria established in it.

Okay, new idea! Take out the filter media and throw it in the bucket of water you're filling up (keep it wet so it stays viable). Completely change the water in your tank...and see if it still climbs. Also test the bucket obviously. We've really just got to try and take a scientific approach and eliminate variables one by one.

No python so I'll need to do that tomorrow. I want to make sure I get this done quickly so any bacteria on the DW or whereever stays alive. I think I'm in need of all the bacteria I can grow.