Angel fish issue

[mikey5290]

Hello

Had a sudden death of one of my angelfish this morning, no warning signs that I saw (behaviour wise, or non eating). Upon looking at his body I noticed a small mark on the side of his head. Upon further examining my remaining angels I noticed another one in the tank with a very similar mark (circled in photo).

Anyone have a clue what this is or if it may have been the cause of the death. Will post water parameters when I get home (50% pwc was done yesterday).



Thanks for the help
Mike

 

[PoppaRyno]

Parasite possibly. Was he using both gills well? Did he have one clamped shut?

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[mikey5290]

The deceased fish I am not 100% sure. I didn't notice anything unusual. The one in the pic is still alive and appears to be using both gills, and ate no problem this morning.

Parameters are 7.8, 0, 0, 5

I have Seachem Polyguard on hand would this be an appropriate treatment, at least to start?

 

[PoppaRyno]

Absolutely. I would start with polyguard since you have it already. Observe, report, and we'll go from there.

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[PoppaRyno]

I think its gill flukes. Red spots indicate a parasitic wound to me.

 

[mikey5290]

Would the Polyguard be effective against gill flukes?

I will be googling to get more info as well, as I am unfamiliar with this.

 

[PoppaRyno]

It might... If we can pin point it, id go more precise med for said problem.

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[mikey5290]

Nothing new to report. Dosed the tank yesterday. He is still alive this morning, acting normal. Ate very well this morning, the mark on him does not look any worse (or better).

Regarding the Polyguard application instructions:
Use 1 level measure (included) to every 40 L (10 gallon)s. Repeat every 3 days for up to 2 weeks or until symptoms disappear.

Where do water changes fit into this? I usually do large water change Saturday or Sunday and then a small on Wednesday (mainly just a quick vac of the sand, usually under 5gallons).

My thought was to do pwc's right before I dosed on the 3rd day.

 

[PoppaRyno]

I usually do a 30% percent between dosings... Unless otherwise directed by meds.

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[Andy Sager]

Nothing new to report. Dosed the tank yesterday. He is still alive this morning, acting normal. Ate very well this morning, the mark on him does not look any worse (or better).

Regarding the Polyguard application instructions:
Use 1 level measure (included) to every 40 L (10 gallon)s. Repeat every 3 days for up to 2 weeks or until symptoms disappear.

Where do water changes fit into this? I usually do large water change Saturday or Sunday and then a small on Wednesday (mainly just a quick vac of the sand, usually under 5gallons).

My thought was to do pwc's right before I dosed on the 3rd day.

When it comes to medications, it's the prolonged exposure to the med that helps eradicate diseases so unless the medicine calls for doing water changes while dosing, I would not do one. I'd also not do a larger amount of change than prescribed.
As for the particular disease in/on your fish, unfortunately, my computer screen does not show anything drastic so let me ask: Is this a blushing variety of Angelfish? (That would explain the clear gill plate and red behind it from the gills. ) Is the fish scratching his gill area on anything in the tank? (Scratching and twitching is a sign of parasite infestation.) Is the fish breathing normally or having any issues with breathing such as going to the surface for air? If yes, have you checked your water parameters for quality issues?
And if none of these questions help, here is a link to a chart of diseases that may help you diagnose: Chart on Fish Diseases, Symptoms and their Treatments

Hope this helps

 

[PoppaRyno]

When it comes to medications, it's the prolonged exposure to the med that helps eradicate diseases so unless the medicine calls for doing water changes while dosing, I would not do one. I'd also not do a larger amount of change than prescribed.
As for the particular disease in/on your fish, unfortunately, my computer screen does not show anything drastic so let me ask: Is this a blushing variety of Angelfish? (That would explain the clear gill plate and red behind it from the gills. ) Is the fish scratching his gill area on anything in the tank? (Scratching and twitching is a sign of parasite infestation.) Is the fish breathing normally or having any issues with breathing such as going to the surface for air? If yes, have you checked your water parameters for quality issues?
And if none of these questions help, here is a link to a chart of diseases that may help you diagnose: Chart on Fish Diseases, Symptoms and their Treatments

Hope this helps

He master is here..... Ill just say good day and scoot on out o here.

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[Andy Sager]

LOL No need to scoot. I just do Disease diagnoses more from a symptoms approach since my computer screens don't always show good resolution. A picture can tell 1000 words but if you can't see it, it's mute. So don't leave just because I put my 2 cents in.

 

[PoppaRyno]

Haha.... Im not leavin.... But i stand by the master comment! Just listening in from the balcony for educational purposes.

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[PoppaRyno]

It was meant complimentary

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[mikey5290]

Well I appreciate the help from all on this site. Things like this that happen are humbling.

I have not noticed any scratching or rubbing of any kind. As for the type of Angel--I bought them as "red head koi angels".
So I am not sure if they are a blushing type? I never noticed this mark before and it really does look like an injury, or wound of some type. I really wish I would have thought about taking pics of the other fish that died as he stayed still way better than the live one.and he had the same mark.

This afternoon I was watching the tank for about an hour and I noticed one fish kept chasing the one fish in question whenever they got close to each other. No other fish just the one. Is it possibly just a wound from being picked on?

So...... with that, and Andy's advice about not doing water changes during the medicating process I decided it might be best to isolate the one into a hospital tank.
I moved him into a 15g with a sponge filter and the treated water.

I tried once again to get a clearer picture.

Still hard to see though.

Hopefully the stress of moving and pic taking didn't do more damage that good.

Again thanks for all the help, I hope I can return the favor to someone along the way.

Mike

 

[Andy Sager]

Well I appreciate the help from all on this site. Things like this that happen are humbling.

I have not noticed any scratching or rubbing of any kind. As for the type of Angel--I bought them as "red head koi angels".
So I am not sure if they are a blushing type? I never noticed this mark before and it really does look like an injury, or wound of some type. I really wish I would have thought about taking pics of the other fish that died as he stayed still way better than the live one.and he had the same mark.

This afternoon I was watching the tank for about an hour and I noticed one fish kept chasing the one fish in question whenever they got close to each other. No other fish just the one. Is it possibly just a wound from being picked on?

So...... with that, and Andy's advice about not doing water changes during the medicating process I decided it might be best to isolate the one into a hospital tank.
I moved him into a 15g with a sponge filter and the treated water.

I tried once again to get a clearer picture.
View attachment 276085
Still hard to see though.

Hopefully the stress of moving and pic taking didn't do more damage that good.

Again thanks for all the help, I hope I can return the favor to someone along the way.

Mike

Yes, highly possible it's a wound from an attack. From this pic, I don't see inflamed red gills. In fact, they look a little pale so please confirm. It could just be the gill plate is a milky white color. Which fish was the aggressor?

A little Angelfish history time : In the beginning, Koi Angels were made from a number of genetic lines until they came up with a Blushing Gold Marble. That could explain the see through gill covering on your fish. Many other Koi strains have since been developed that don't have the blushing effect so it's not seen on all Kois. So we need to keep all this in mind when diagnosing.
As for the use of the sponge filter in the hospital tank, it depends on the medication but some, mostly antibiotics, retard the beneficial bacteria bed so you want to confirm your med doesn't or it will just kill the sponge filter. When treating with most antibiotics, just use a bare tank and an airstone. The meds have you changing a small percentage of water during treatment so the biological isn't necessary at this point. Just check the package before using any medicines in a tank.

 

[Andy Sager]

Haha.... Im not leavin.... But i stand by the master comment! Just listening in from the balcony for educational purposes.

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It was meant complimentary

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Thanks, I didn't take it any other way So how's the view from the balcony?

 

[mikey5290]

Well don't I feel stupid.

FYI tank is in our bedroom
I was laying there trying to nap before nightshift tonight and was observing the behaviour in the tank since removing the "injured" fish. The previous bully "Chester" had picked a new target and was chasing and nipping over and over.

But it wasn't until I noticed another fish cleaning the filter tube before I put 2 and 2 together.

I seperated all the remaining fish and just left Chester and the other fish in the tank. Before this I hadn't noticed and pairing behaviour, but maybe I was just not seeing what I thought I would see.

Worst part was we bought them all small and were waiting for them to pair up.

Now they are both cleaning the filter tube totally ignoring the slate, and I can see a breeding tube on the one fish.

Time to set up the other 40g for the isolated 3 and start thinking ahead.

 

[mikey5290]

I will still watch and monitor the "injured" fish, but I am starting to think that it might have been caused by some bullying from Chester.

Chester might even have caused the other fishes death.

Sorry for the scatter brain thoughts and comments...lack of sleep. And busy moving tanks around before getting to work.

 

[Andy Sager]

Well don't I feel stupid.

FYI tank is in our bedroom
I was laying there trying to nap before nightshift tonight and was observing the behaviour in the tank since removing the "injured" fish. The previous bully "Chester" had picked a new target and was chasing and nipping over and over.

But it wasn't until I noticed another fish cleaning the filter tube before I put 2 and 2 together.

I seperated all the remaining fish and just left Chester and the other fish in the tank. Before this I hadn't noticed and pairing behaviour, but maybe I was just not seeing what I thought I would see.

Worst part was we bought them all small and were waiting for them to pair up.

Now they are both cleaning the filter tube totally ignoring the slate, and I can see a breeding tube on the one fish.

Time to set up the other 40g for the isolated 3 and start thinking ahead.

Place the slate in front of the filter tube to encourage them to use it opposed to the filter tube.