Angelfish - HITH?

[Jacky12]

I recently purchased a group from a company that bills themselves as America’s largest breeder. They have a huge facility in Florida and have bred some of my finest African Cichlids. Turns out they get angels elsewhere. They sent two Santa Isabel variety, P. scalare. Both are severely stunted. It has been suggested one has early HITH. I’ve isolated the pair, but am not treating. I would like to know if other DX’s are possible for the flat white lesions on the one. I’ve been told both are likely to die soon.

 

[Andy Sager]

For starters, stunted fish are already genetically inferior so they are open to more problems.
HITH, based on Untergasser's book as well as my own experience, is more about a dietary deficiency than a " disease" so upping the quality and vitamin availability for the fish through their food will help combat the HITH.

With all that said, Santa Isabel redbacks require extremely clean water for that red to even show. We are talking about Ph below 6.0, General Hardness under 2, KH under 1, Nitrates under 5 ppm ( realistically, with a Ph under 6, no nitrification will occur so there should be 0 nitrates or nitrites) . We are talking EXTREMELY clean water. I don't know anywhere in Florida that has that kind of water coming out of the tap or the ground so if they are breeding them in FL, they have to be altering their water. I would contact the seller to ask specifically what their water parameters are for these fish. It should be different than for their regular Angels. My Domestics in S. Florida bred in rock hard water with a Ph over 8.5.
On a side note, I would not have them in with any domestic Angelfish varieties because they can be subject to many pathogens domestics may be carrying with no natural immunity.
Based on the size difference of the fish in your picture, that spot could be a bite just as much as it could be a lesion.
Finally, I sure hope they didn't charge you for those fish. Shame on them for even keeping the runts if their plan was to sell them.

 

[Jacky12]

Thanks, Andy, you’ve made my day by suggesting they may not have HITH, even though the outlook is grim. I could not possibly ask the Florida place, Imperial Tropicals, to make any inquiries of the idiot breeder as to pH etc. They have severed ties with the breeder and admitted they purchased these SI in poor condition & treated them with various medications. I forwarded to IT a group of posts from internationally renowned experts about the two stunted fish. Three believe they are not even SI at all. These are people I know from Facebook groups. IT refunded my $260, 4 fish plus shipping, and told me to never darken their doors again. As if I would. The pair are in isolation in a 29 G tank which is vacuumed everyday with a partial water change.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks, Andy, you’ve made my day by suggesting they may not have HITH, even though the outlook is grim. I could not possibly ask the Florida place, Imperial Tropicals, to make any inquiries of the idiot breeder as to pH etc. They have severed ties with the breeder and admitted they purchased these SI in poor condition & treated them with various medications. I forwarded to IT a group of posts from internationally renowned experts about the two stunted fish. Three believe they are not even SI at all. These are people I know from Facebook groups. IT refunded my $260, 4 fish plus shipping, and told me to never darken their doors again. As if I would. The pair are in isolation in a 29 G tank which is vacuumed everyday with a partial water change.

From what I understand, it's not easy to differentiate these from other wild scalares when they are small so you would need to know their location to confirm what they are. ( Very similar to what is happening with Goodieds. Place of collection is very important for genetic diversity in the CARES program. ) Imperial is actually not too, too far from me so I know their water ain't Santa Isabel pure. LOL I see there are some hybrid "wilds" coming out of Europe so if these were tank bred, it could be a number of things. :^s The fact that they medicated these fish and they are in this condition only says to me that HITH is not as much a disease but a response to improper keeping. At least you got your money back but SHAME on the breeder for selling the runts to begin with.

 

[Jacky12]

I agree HITH is the result of very poor conditions that can open the door to Hex and other pathogens. I understand Hex to be an opportunistic protozoan commonly present in many fish. I’m hoping Hex is not the root cause, given the internal manifestation. Of course, I’m hoping it’s not Hex at all.

BTW, I have a group of five 50% SI kept at the same conditions of my other scalare. My tap pH is high, ~8. They are doing very well.

 

[Andy Sager]

I agree HITH is the result of very poor conditions that can open the door to Hex and other pathogens. I understand Hex to be an opportunistic protozoan commonly present in many fish. I’m hoping Hex is not the root cause, given the internal manifestation. Of course, I’m hoping it’s not Hex at all.

BTW, I have a group of five 50% SI kept at the same conditions of my other scalare. My tap pH is high, ~8. They are doing very well.

There have been studies done where the Hexamita pathogen was not present in cases of HITH which is why it's not believed to be the actual cause of it. ( I believe Untergasser sighted the studies?)
As for your 50% SI Angels, what are they mixed with? It's my understanding that for the 100% wild fish, it " survives" in other water conditions but if you want the red coloration to show in the fish, the water needs to be as I described.

 

[Jacky12]

The 50% SI are true mutts: pb, zebra & clown
I have no expectations of any red. The pb is quite amazing under the right light.

 

[Andy Sager]

The 50% SI are true mutts: pb, zebra & clown
I have no expectations of any red. The pb is quite amazing under the right light.

Yeah, when you have such a mix, the odds of them being more adaptable to any water is much higher since you have 3 lines of very domesticated fish . They may not be as adaptable if they were 100% wild A x 100% wild B mixes?
I'd be curious if you crossed a SI with a natural 100% domesticated Silver if the redness would transfer to the Silver under the right conditions for the wild SI.

 

[Jacky12]

No idea, but I know guys who know. I’ll ask.
Do you know who David Labell is? I’m buying from him in the future, just recently became aware of him.

 

[Andy Sager]

No idea, but I know guys who know. I’ll ask.
Do you know who David Labell is? I’m buying from him in the future, just recently became aware of him.

I don't know him personally but I know his antics from people I know who know him. Buy with caution is all I can say.

 

[Jacky12]

Really? They act like he’s a Fish God, what with introducing the Philippine Blue & Bulgarian Sealpoint to the US. Do you know Steve Rybicki, another guru. Very smart & experienced.

 

[Andy Sager]

Really? They act like he’s a Fish God, what with introducing the Philippine Blue & Bulgarian Sealpoint to the US. Do you know Steve Rybicki, another guru. Very smart & experienced.

People who act like a fish God, usually aren't. You only have to know somebody ( a.k.a. Money talks) to be "the first" with a new color variety in this business.
As for Steve Rybicki ( Angels Plus), I have only purchased foods from them, not fish. Angels Plus used to have ( and maybe still have) the history of the creation of the Koi Angelfish on their website. The only reason I was willing to accept their story as true was because I had one of the rare lines that were used to create the fish. I had never seen the line before or since I had them.

IMO, if I were looking for WILD caught Angels, I would look at the Wet Spot before anyone else. Another option would be to connect with a store that buys from Ruinemans aquarium in Homestead, FL. They are direct importers. ( Ruinemans does not sell directly to the public. ) If you are looking for domestic Angels, I know my buddy ( who I got all my most recent Angels from) sells to consolidated fish farms over in Tampa. Otherwise, I'd contact the ACA ( cichlid.org) and ask if they have any members breeding Angels in your vicinity and see your fish before you buy them. Most of the online places are getting theirs from places like these anyway so why not cut out that middleman?

 

[Jacky12]

Thanks, I will look at Steve’s site. I came very close to getting Altums not too long ago and decided against it. I have installed a Burundi colony in the tank intended for them. I have an 8” male and four 5” girls. A week after their purchase, I discovered 6 babies. I have them in a grow out tank. Very cute little things.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks, I will look at Steve’s site. I came very close to getting Altums not too long ago and decided against it. I have installed a Burundi colony in the tank intended for them. I have an 8” male and four 5” girls. A week after their purchase, I discovered 6 babies. I have them in a grow out tank. Very cute little things.

Yeah, I'm still waiting until I can get a really tall large tank for a school of true Altums. I saw some 7 year old Altums in a standard 300 gallon tank and they didn't have good finnage anymore because the water level was not tall enough for them. I'm pretty sure I will end up building a 4' x 8' plywood tank for them.

 

[Jacky12]

True Altums? It’s either an altum or not. There’s a guy In Philadelphia who is breeding some beautiful F1. I forget the collection site. He’s a very gifted breeder, has multiple species. He is from Poland, but goes by the name Angel Skaler. lol.

 

[Andy Sager]

True Altums? It’s either an altum or not. There’s a guy In Philadelphia who is breeding some beautiful F1. I forget the collection site. He’s a very gifted breeder, has multiple species. He is from Poland, but goes by the name Angel Skaler. lol.

"true" altums as in not Peruvian Altums which are not P altum at all.
My buddy in Tampa has someone breeding all the different wild type Angels so I'll get them from there. More local to me. ( But I wish he was closer. It's 150 mile round trip for me. )