Angelfish info/help

[niawomad]

Hi, I've had 3 angelfish in my tank (150 litres) along with some gold barbs and mollies for about a month now and I just wanted a bit of advice with the angels. I have tried sexing them myself but I'm not really sure at all so I will attach some photos and hopefully you can help me with that. Secondly, as of the last 4-5 days 2 of the angels seem to be constantly chasing one of the others around and trying to nip etc. I'm not sure if this is just a breeding thing as I have read that can happen and its not an issue or it is an issue and it is just them bullying the other one, the one getting chased around etc is the middle sized one so the larger and smaller one are the ones doing the chasing. They will just come from one side of the tank to the other to chase it or try nipping. Tank readings seem good and have been consistent for a while, I haven't changed anything in the tank. Please let me know your thoughts and if you need any other info/images etc.

Thanks

Not the best quality but just an idea of what's happening
https://youtu.be/x9okfYCuBC0

 

[Aiken Drum]

The only way you can confidently tell if angel fish are female or male is if one lays eggs and another fertilises them. They might show some M/F characteristics once they are 6 months old, but even if they show charactistics, its not 100% due to commercial breeding practices. From the video they look quite small, so are probably juveniles. How big are they?

Angelfish are anything but angelic. They will fight to establish a pecking order, they will fight when breeding, they will fight just because they have a bad temperament.

I had 4 in 200 litre and 2 of the females just didnt get along and the tank wasnt big enough for them to keep out of each others way. After a year of managing it i had to rehome 1 of the fish before one got killed. I now have 3 and i have the same problem, but to a lesser extent as i dont think one fish is actively trying to kill the other, but they do get beat up when the mood takes them. Im seriously thinking about rehoming and just keeping the established pair.

Its not the pair that cause the problems. Its the 3rd fish (female) trying to break up the pair.

3 angelfish is a really bad idea. Not enough fish to spread out aggression. You will either have at least 2 males or 2 females and they are likely to take a dislike to the competition and 150 litres just isnt big enough for them to keep out of each others way.

 

[niawomad]

Ok thanks for the input so what would your recommendations be? Just take 1 back to the store if that's even possible at this point or remove 2 and leave 1 in there? If so how well would one do as a solo angel? Or is even removing all 3 the best. The one that is being bullied has just always been calm and done its own thing since I got it. My initial idea was to get 2 and the guy at the lfs said that 3 would be fine so I obviously couldn't help myself. Also, what is the standard practice for returning fish to the store, I would have expected that 1 month would be too long to return at least for a refund but in your experience do fish stores just take fish back, presuming I would be at a loss of the cost of the fish but just doing so for the sake of the other fish in my tank. I'm not sure about this as I have never done it.

 

[Aiken Drum]

I would monitor things carefully. At this point they are testings things out. If one is coming out of it with injuries or one is being prevented from eating then they need seperating.

Getting a pair out of it would be the goal, or at least getting 2 fish that will tolerate each other. If they settle down, then you might get away with things, but needing to rehome 1 might be a possibility. 1 fish not getting beat up would be better than 2 or 3 fish constantly fighting each other. You will just have to see how things develop.

Around here you wouldnt have a problem getting store credit for returning a fish, especially if its grown a little. Adult angelfish go for about £40 here, and you would get £12 to £15 credit on it. Juveniles maybe go for around £10 for a nice angel, so maybe £3 store credit on a return. Your profile says UK. Whereabouts are you?

 

[niawomad]

I would monitor things carefully. At this point they are testings things out. If one is coming out of it with injuries or one is being prevented from eating then they need seperating.

Getting a pair out of it would be the goal, or at least getting 2 fish that will tolerate each other. If they settle down, then you might get away with things, but needing to rehome 1 might be a possibility. 1 fish not getting beat up would be better than 2 or 3 fish constantly fighting each other. You will just have to see how things develop.

Around here you wouldnt have a problem getting store credit for returning a fish, especially if its grown a little. Adult angelfish go for about £40 here, and you would get £12 to £15 credit on it. Juveniles maybe go for around £10 for a nice angel, so maybe £3 store credit on a return. Your profile says UK. Whereabouts are you?

I'm from Burnley. The biggest one is also now chasing some of the mollies around every now and then. I will keep an eye on them as suggested but obviously don't want any of the fish getting stressed or injured.

 

[Colin_T]

What are the tank dimensions (length x width x height)?

Angelfish live in groups while young and pair off as adults, but the adults can still live in groups when not breeding. Generally it is best to keep them in groups of at least 6 or more. You can also keep one or two, but the saying goes "two's company, three's a crowd".

The first picture (black marble angel) looks like a female. The other 2 pictures are gold marble (blushing?) angels and are both males.

Separate the one being bullied.

-------------------

What is the GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness) and pH of your water supply?
This information can usually be obtained from your water supply company's website (Water Analysis Report) or by telephoning them. If they can't help you, take a glass full of tap water to the local pet shop and get them to test it for you. Write the results down (in numbers) when they do the tests. And ask them what the results are in (eg: ppm, dGH, or something else).

Depending on what the GH of your water is, will determine what fish you should keep.

Angelfish, discus, most tetras, most barbs, Bettas, gouramis, rasbora, Corydoras and small species of suckermouth catfish all occur in soft water (GH below 150ppm) and a pH below 7.0.

Livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), rainbowfish and goldfish occur in medium hard water with a GH around 200-250ppm and a pH above 7.0.

If you have very hard water (GH above 300ppm) then look at African Rift Lake cichlids, or use distilled or reverse osmosis water to reduce the GH and keep fishes from softer water.

 

[niawomad]

What are the tank dimensions (length x width x height)?

Angelfish live in groups while young and pair off as adults, but the adults can still live in groups when not breeding. Generally it is best to keep them in groups of at least 6 or more. You can also keep one or two, but the saying goes "two's company, three's a crowd".

The first picture (black marble angel) looks like a female. The other 2 pictures are gold marble (blushing?) angels and are both males.

Separate the one being bullied.

-------------------

What is the GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness) and pH of your water supply?
This information can usually be obtained from your water supply company's website (Water Analysis Report) or by telephoning them. If they can't help you, take a glass full of tap water to the local pet shop and get them to test it for you. Write the results down (in numbers) when they do the tests. And ask them what the results are in (eg: ppm, dGH, or something else).

Depending on what the GH of your water is, will determine what fish you should keep.

Angelfish, discus, most tetras, most barbs, Bettas, gouramis, rasbora, Corydoras and small species of suckermouth catfish all occur in soft water (GH below 150ppm) and a pH below 7.0.

Livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), rainbowfish and goldfish occur in medium hard water with a GH around 200-250ppm and a pH above 7.0.

If you have very hard water (GH above 300ppm) then look at African Rift Lake cichlids, or use distilled or reverse osmosis water to reduce the GH and keep fishes from softer water.

Tank Dimensions are - 81,2 x 40,2 x 56 cm

The problem at the moment at least is that the biggest one which seems ok with the black angel is just chasing everything in sight around the tank since posting this.

The PH of the water in the tank is 7 using the API test kit and the KH and GH are both at 4 using the API test kit again for those. I have tested the tap water in the past the PH was 6 and I used some seachem products to increase it but it has been at a steady 7 for a while now.

 

[Colin_T]

The GH is too low for mollies in the long term but is fine for the angelfish.

The tank is a bit small for 3 angelfish and is pushing it for a pr with other fish.

 

[niawomad]

The GH is too low for mollies in the long term but is fine for the angelfish.

The tank is a bit small for 3 angelfish and is pushing it for a pr with other fish.

Ok, I have seen GH for the mollies range from 6+ to 12+ after looking so what would you suggest? If I increased the GH to the liking of the mollies for the long term how would that affect the gold barbs? As the tank is at the moment what would you recommend doing? Removing all angels?

Thanks for the input again.

 

[Andy Sager]

Ok, I have seen GH for the mollies range from 6+ to 12+ after looking so what would you suggest? If I increased the GH to the liking of the mollies for the long term how would that affect the gold barbs? As the tank is at the moment what would you recommend doing? Removing all angels?

Thanks for the input again.

Based on the video your Angels look like they are on the smallish size but size alone does not determine sexual maturity. Angelfish can start breeding at 6 months of age no matter how large they are. The problem with that is breeding pairs will select a section of the tank for spawning and defend it against all the other fish in the tank. Your tank is really too small to have a pair in a community setting without there being deaths along the way. Sadly, due to many generations of breeding, there is no longer a guaranteed way to sex Angelfish from physical appearances alone. Your only ways for 100% ID is to view their breeding tubes or watching them spawn. The one laying the eggs is the female.
If your Angels are less than 6 months old, they are fighting for dominance. Angels live in a hierarchy society so even in schools, there is a specific "pecking" order. As long as there is no physical damage, I'd let them figure it out themselves. Once damage occurs, separation is your best bet as the damage will only get worse. As Aiken said, they are not a very Angelic fish specie.

As for changing your water parameters, you are better off mixing fish that require similar water parameters than fish from mixed ones. To make the water " right " for some will not be good for the others so you will always be fighting a losing battle with this. Wild Angels and Barbs come from similar parameters while some of the Molly species don't. Domestic Angelfish ( the ones you have) can handle a wide variety of water parameters as will the Gold Barbs. If your Mollies are a Sailfin variety, they also come naturally in softer water. I have them here in my culverts during the rainy season where the water hardness is generally 8 on the API hardness tests. Mollies in the Sphenops family ( Black, Marble, Gold dust, etc) require harder water.

What to do is based on which fish types you want to keep. Personally, I would remove the pair of Angelfish if they are a pair. ( You will see that the one doing the "picking on" is only picking at one of the other two and not both. The one being picked on is not part of the pair. ) Either set them up in their own tank, alone, or sell/trade them back to your local store. If they are just figuring out their pecking order, know that at some point when they get larger, you will need to rehome them to a larger tank. Domestic Angels do not need to be in a schooling situation so they can live alone. Is this a good idea is only determined by which other fish you want to keep with it.

Hope this helps.

 

[Colin_T]

Ok, I have seen GH for the mollies range from 6+ to 12+ after looking so what would you suggest? If I increased the GH to the liking of the mollies for the long term how would that affect the gold barbs? As the tank is at the moment what would you recommend doing? Removing all angels?

Thanks for the input again.

Ideally you want 2 tanks. One for the Mollies that like hard water and one for the angelfish and barbs that like soft water.

If you don't want a second tank, probably get rid of the mollies.

If you don't mind getting a second tank but space is a concern, you can buy double or triple tier stands and have one tank above the other. Then you could have mollies in one and add a Rift Lake water conditioner to increase the GH and KH of the water for them. And the other tank could be home to the angelfish.

If you do get a second tank, try to get something that is at least 4 foot long. Then it will have room for the angelfish to breed and interact without as many arguments. However, if you are new to fish keeping, I would get rid of the mollies and see how you go with the remaining fish over the next few months, and if you continue to keep fish and don't get discouraged, then look at getting another tank.

 

[niawomad]

Thanks all for the in depth input and advice, it's much appreciated. I will figure out what I want to do based on that info going forward, looks like I will be swapping out some fish. Thanks again.