bold assumption for bioload

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carpediem

Aquarium Advice Activist
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
121
Location
Canada
My situation:
I have 3 platies, 2 guppies, 3 glowlight, 1 cory and 1 otocinclus currently living at my lfs again. As some of you might know, I had a problem with a tank that would not cycle for 2 months. So I took everything apart and am going fishless cycling right now. Here my idea:

Since I had a more or less constant level of 1.0 ammonia daily with daily water changes of 1/3 (rising if change was postponed for 1/2 day longer) would it be safe to assume that that was the bioload for my fish?

Therefore, if I currently achieve an ammonia level of 1.0 during cycling with a fuzzy prawn, would that be equivalent to the "waste output" of all my fish together?
Could I therefore get all my fish back together, or do I need to take them back a few at a time?
 
I seriously think that the 1ppm was the problem. The bacteria need a much larger "kick" to jump start them. That has always been the tricky part. Most folks agree that 5ppm is needed to activate the bacteria but then needs to be controlled so that it doesn't get so high as to stall the cycle and/or kill fish.

If you only get to 1ppm...the cycle will not start. If you take a look at FancyGuppyguys and TomK2's posts in the "Cycle after 1 day" thread, you will see the numbers of a successful cycle.

Fishless cycling removes the chance of accidentally killing fish and allows you to monitor and control the ammonia levels quickly. I would think that the prawn's decaying will produce a higher ammonia level than 1ppm. If it does, you may not need to do anything else.

You will have to test daily to see where you're at then increase/decrease when necessary. HTH

*Found the thread http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=45841&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
 
Disagree with you there. Before, I had at least 1.0 ammonia over a period of 6 weeks, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate with fish.
Now, (I am on Day 9 of fishless), I have 1.0 ammonia and a few days later rising levels of nitrite. First .125 then .25 for 2 days now.
So, with 1.0 ammonia, I now have nitrite, when before with same levels, I did not.
 
There's sort of a conumdrum in your stats. Ammonia is ammonia no matter the source. If you had this number with fish and no nitrite, logic would dictate that the same thing should happen now. I would say that your ammonia level is much higher than 1ppm at this point.
 
You can actually cycle with undetectable ammonia, but it takes a while. My low bioload project took 40 days to cycle with fish, without ever detecting ammonia or nitrite.

For fishless ammonia cycling, 5ppm is thought to get it going the fastest. But... has anyone ever done an experiment comparing different ammonia levels and the speed of cycling? Not that I know of, and I am contemplating doing this. With Decaying food cycling, you won't have any precision control of the ammonia levels, but if they go above 5 the consensus is to water change back down to 5ppm or less.

Carpediem sure had a rough start to his tank. I think too large a bioload was part of the problem. I would think it would be best to take the fish back in increments, so as to avoid another problem. Better to be cautious! After all this time, who would want any more trouble?

Now, I do not know of any info about how much ammonia a given fish generates per day. If you could find this out, then you could add a know amount of ammonia to the tank over a day, and if it was gone the next day, your tanks capacity would be at least that much. Of course, one could put the fish in question in a small tank of known volume, mesure the rate of ammonia rish and quantify the amount of ammonia produced as a factor of time.... ugh... please!..... no...... no more experiment ideas!
 
Yes, the circumstances are different now. (before, I had fish, then I took my tank apart, cleaned everything (ornaments, plastic plants, gravel, aquarium), put it back together and added a piece of prawn instead of the fish.

There must have been someting in the tank that prohibited my tank from cycling at all (no nitrites and no nitrates at all)

Now, with the same level of ammonia of 1.0 as before (here is where I disagree with you), I do get rising levels of nitrite (even if low). Now, I obviously have bacteries that transform ammonia into nitrite when before those would not colonize in my tank.

My levels are accurate and have been before (tested with different kits before, that used to be my suspicion).

My question now is, is it safe to assume that "fuzzy" generates enough ammonia to breed enough bacteries to handle all my fish (therefore the comparison with the ammonia levels before and now), or will I go through another cycle. Is it safe to take them all back at once, or should I take them back a few at a time?
 
TomK2, sorry, I did not mean to tempt you with another project. I guess, you understood where I was coming from. If all my fish can raise the level of ammonia (without any cycling going on), to 1.0, and my fuzzy is doing that right now,..

I think you get my point. Definitely worth thinking about it.
 
Be cautious, take the fish back slowly, a few per week. Monitor for trouble. A longer but more certain way to go. With any luck, you should be recliming them in one or two weeks.
 
Well, giving in to the fact that the cycle method is known but the exact numbers are not, I would have to say you could add your fish back a little at a time (that was the question...was it not :wink: ) But you would have to monitor the levels regularily and base the re-introduction based on those parameters.

I only have your interest in mind Carpediem (and of course, those of your fishies). I just didn't want to see your cycle stalled again.

Good luck!
 
Ichillin, never doubted your good intentions and definitely don't want to see the cycle stalled either. I am patient (or at least working hard on it) and will not take them back until my cycle is complete. Don't want to go too high on the bioload and do not want to go too low either (also I understand if I do go below my bacteries will just be dormant until the levels of ammonia raise again). Latter would therefore not cause a "problem", too many would cause another mini cycle.
At this point in time, it is just a guessing game. (yes, I do miss the fish and fuzzy looks less and less attractive every day).
I might trade that one platy women for one or two more corys. She is just being bullied by the male platy (he buddies up with one, but chases away the other female).
I guess, I will start (no, not yet!!!!!) with the platies, then the guppies, then the glowlight and the cory and then the oto. Would that be the proper order? I figure, 2 additions per week should be sufficient.
 
Thanks again to you and TomK2 for helping out. I have received so much help since I joined and that is greatly appreciated.
So you think that is the right order to take them back? I tried to group them by their sensitivity to problems with water condition.
 
perhaps over 1 ppm of a constant supply of ammonia is needed ?? If you are reading nitrite your ammonia levels are above 1 ppm and some of it is getting converted.

anyhow if you had a tank with fish for two months and nothing was registering on your nitrite or nitrate test kit I would think something was wrong with the test itself.

another thing to consider those bacteria need a surge of ammonia and a constant supply of it to start working. If you had 1 ppm or less and kept changing water youd have fluctuations in your ammonia at a very low level for the bacteria to start with. They could have decided that there was not enough ammonia and/or there was not a constant supply enough for them to be activated. In other words you stalled them by doing so many water changes.

How many water changes have you done with the shrimp in the tank??

you have to remember these bacteria are living things and they do react to adverse conditions in water quality and chemistry. I have posted some links below that give some very good info about these bacteria and what is needed to activate them and what can cause them not to activate or even die off.
 
FancyGuppyGuy said:
perhaps over 1 ppm of a constant supply of ammonia is needed ?? If you are reading nitrite your ammonia levels are above 1 ppm and some of it is getting converted.

You have a point with that, however TomK2 did a low bioload cycle over 40 (?) weeks and apparently achieved this below 1.0 ammonia.

anyhow if you had a tank with fish for two months and nothing was registering on your nitrite or nitrate test kit I would think something was wrong with the test itself.

That was my first assumption, because my fish seemed to be fine unless I postponed the 1/3 water change, then they were panting below the surface. We, (me and the lfs owner) tested with several kits from different brands. Same results.

another thing to consider those bacteria need a surge of ammonia and a constant supply of it to start working. If you had 1 ppm or less and kept changing water youd have fluctuations in your ammonia at a very low level for the bacteria to start with.

I did not change water until levels rose above 1.00 ammonia. At times I hac almost 2.0 ammonia. It is not that I did not allow for a rise. I therefore maintained at least 1.00 ammonia for several weeks and not even getting traces of nitrite. Now, without changes it is happening right away with ammonia steady at 1.5 without any changes, showing nitrites too.

How many water changes have you done with the shrimp in the tank??

None, however, I do not add Stress Zyme (apparently live (or not so alive) bacteries to the water either on a daily basis.

Thanks so much for the links, I'll check them out.

I do not think, that I will ever be able to pinpoint the exact cause, why it did not cycle before and it is doing it right away now that I have taken it apart. I have changed too many parameters (cleaned the whole aquarium,
do not add stress zyme, piece of prawn instead of fish, changed the charcoal cartridge).
If I would have had these parameters with the fish, I would have been happy and would not have done pwc daily.
 
try reading the links :) they do tell you why if you do.

water changes stalled your cycle simple as that.

"Since I had a more or less constant level of 1.0 ammonia daily with daily water changes of 1/3 (rising if change was postponed for 1/2 day longer) would it be safe to assume that that was the bioload for my fish? "

More or less?? daily changes mean not a constant stable supply. the bacteria where thrown different water parameters almost daily and these bacteria can take 24-36 hours to multiply. Also when the source is not high enough or barely high enough and is in a constant state of change they go back into the dormant state.

I cannot copy and paste from the first link or I would, but in there it tells you about the Nitrosomonas and why they do not just start up when there is some ammonia in the tank. It also says that they can be activated with 200 ppm ammonia and take 2-3 days to activate with that amount. With the amount you had 1 ppm it would take them alot longer than that.

I understand these bacteria and If I was one of them I would not activate in the conditions you say you did with your first attempt at cycling. lets say one day its .5ppm so i get alittle itchy then it goes to 1.5ppm now im really thinking oh boy it might be time to activate but I realize this is life or death i am talking about. The next day wham .5 again I say bummer I was already togo. So then it goes to 1.0 again I am feeling like doing something. but I didnt like that last drop so I am going to make sure its a steady amount before activating. sure enough wham another water change ammonias go down again. Its no wonder you never got started cycling.
 
A bit more fuzzy prawn might actually help as it would raise your ammonia level & then hopefully your nitrite to a level that would kick in the bacteria that make the conversion to nitrate. It might speed things up a bit & would certainly make sure you have enough of a bacterial colony to get your fish back with no spikes because your colony was too small.
 
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