Cycle

[countrygirl]

We are setting up a brand new 250 gallon aquarium. We can put water in it tommorrow. I am getting driven crazy here because the guy at the pet store said to use Cycle, it is a great product, it will help the Nirogen cycle along and make the transition easier for your fish, he said he was going to give us some gunk from the tanks in the store to help get the process along too, so we could bring our fish home this weekend. GREAT YEA!!!! RIGHT?

Well not the built the aquarium said do not use Cycle it is crap and can actually kill the bacteria you want in the aquarium gravel. He said do not bring the fish home, put the three bala sharks in there and that is it let the amonia go up up up up and then when the amonia drops add the other fish. Also do not mess with water changes, leave it alone

Ok I have other aquariums and I have been very successful using cycle at the beginning and then every week thereafter. I do a 25% water change after 4 days, after 8 days and then every week thereafter, that gets me through the 30 day period and I water change once a month after that. This has worked very well for me, so it is what I want to do this time.

I don't know what the right thing to do is, I don't want to lose any fish but I want my fish home, they have been paid for for two months now. HELP!!!!

 

[AtodaJ]

Our resident expert will be along shortly I'm sure but I just wanted to talk about "Cycle". That product contains the incorrect bacteria. The only product out there that works is called Bio Spira as it has the correct bacteria.

Good luck!

 

[Allivymar]

Yep; as AtodaJ said, the product Cycle is a waste of time. The only product out of the zillion that are out there, that has the correct nitrifying bacteria is BioSpira. You'll need an awful lot for a 250g tho; could get a little pricey. The gunk from his tanks WILL help cycle your new tank, but can you guarantee his tanks are 100% healthy and there is no disease at all in them? Cause if there is, the diseases will be in your tank as well along with the gunk.

You could also cycle the tank with fish, but I think 3 balas, unless they are big, aren't going to make a big dent in a large tank like that. Fortunately a large tank gives one more room for error.

 

[Allivymar]

Oh! *slaps self in head* and welcome to Aquariumadvice countrygirl

 

[countrygirl]

lol thank you so much the balas are 6 inches long, there are also a Blue Acara, A leopoldi stingray and a motoro stingray (don't shoot me) I want them home NOW

 

[Allivymar]

Ooo *puts gun away* ok. I won't shoot but I will give some words of advice.

Both are dangerous. Both can cause serious injury and while they won't attack, they will lash out with their tail spine if they feel threatened.

Both are on the IUCN red list and are considered endangered/threatened:
http://www.redlist.org/search/details.php?species=39403
http://www.redlist.org/search/details.php?species=39405

There can be territorial issues with more then one in a tank; keep an eye out for that.

Make sure the tank IS fully cycled before they go in; they do poorly with any measurable ammonia or nitrite, and need very low levels of nitrates (below 30ppm).

 

[sparth]

there's something i don't understand. it seems that a lot of peeps like me are getting very mixed reviews concerning that cycle product. a lot of experienced guys on forums think the product is worthless. but a lot of LFS are really selling a lot of these bottles, and i bet a lot of them are probably sure the thing is effective and fully working.
just moved to montreal two months ago, visited four shops, and the advices are pretty much the same, as if CYCLE was really a decent product, vital for any new aquariums.
so, is it really a "buy this bottle and begin your aquarium in a week - we don't want you to lose time, buy fish asap instead and we make money" sort of product?
these dudes are supposed to know what they're talking about.

any more ideas on that subject?
new to this exiting fish world. cycling my tank.

and good luck with your 250g countrygirl

 

[countrygirl]

I don't think they sell Bio Spira in Canada. All of the fish have been in the same tank in the fish store for over two months now, I know stingray's can be dangerous but trust me noone is getting in this tank. I need a step ladder to reach in, and I can't reach the bottom. I have also been hand feeding the rays for two months now, they are used to it and are very mild mannered. I know they are animals and are unpredictable at times, but so are dogs and cats.

Don't throw stones at me too hard, I know I shouldn't have brought my babies home BUT I DID, call me impatient call me whatever you want, but I promise I will be very very careful and check the water levels religiously. Here is what we did. We filled the tank last night added aquasafe and cycle and let if sit for a couple of hours until it got to 75 degrees. Then I added a smallish (For this tank) Berney's Shark, a Fire Eel, and two angelfish. Then this afternoon we went to the fish store where our poor fish have been waiting for two months on hold. We picked them all up. A motoro stingray, a leopaldi stingray, a large Blue Acara and three large Bala sharks.

They gave us the gunk from the filter to add to our wet/dry system. Guess what they found in the filter when they did that? A baby Acara (the other large acara in the tank had died) So they gave him to us for free he is about 3 inches long and an inch and a half wide. I can't believe he lived in the filter all that time. But they gave him to us free. He is so sweet.

When we got home we added the gunk directly to the wet/dry system to start the bioballs off. Then we floated the fish for 20 minutes and added them all to the tank. So far so good. I then went and picked up some feeder fish and shrimp pellets and boy did these guys eat them all. Good sign, I think, means they aren't too stressed out so far I think.

So this is what we have in there:

1 fire eel
1 Berney's Shark
1 Motoro Stingray
1 Leopaldi Stingray
2 Angelfish
2 Acaras
3 Balas

 

[AtodaJ]

So here is my understanding of how "Cycle" acts within the aquarium based on my research:

Normal Tank Enviroment

A mature tank will have a biological filter made up of ammonia/nitrite eating bacteria known as Nitrospira. This bacteria is found in every mature tank out there and keeping a proper level of these little buggers is crucial to maintaining a healthy tank. They thrive by consuming ammonia/nitrite as it is their primary food source.

Starting New Tank with "Cycle"

"Cycle" is a product that contains Nitrobacter bacteria. These little buggers will eat ammonia/nitrite as well but its not their first choice. So typically what happens is when you pour these guys in your tank they'll end up eating other stuff. Now if you pour enough Nitrobacter bacteria into your aquarium they will eat the ammonia/nitrite as it will pretty much be the only food source left for them. When you take readings it will even look like maybe your tank is cycled. You'll know this is happening by the way when your tank turns milky white... that is a massive bacterial bloom. Bacterial blooms are not very healthy for fish by the way and should be minimized. If you keep adding Cycle during your month long process what will happen is that the Nitrobacter bacteria will keep the ammonia/nitrite levels relatively low but will kinda foul up the water in other ways such as the bacteria blooms.

The Battle for "Middle Tank" Begins

Now, at the same time this is happening the good bacteria Nitrospira will begin to compete with the Nitrobacter bacteria your pouring into the aquarium every week. You have to remember that Nitrospira bacteria will eventually find its way into an aquarium on its own as its always present in nature. Now the war is waged between Nitrospira and Nitrobacter bacteria. The Nitrospira troops are stronger than the Nitrobacter troops but you keep sending in reinforcements for Nitrobacter (pouring in more Cycle) so the battle is long and hard fought. Many bacteria loose their lives in this pointless struggle. Eventually Nitrospira gains a strong foothold and becomes the dominant bacteria in your tank. After you stop adding more Nitrobacter bacteria, those left in the tank will mostly die off to nominal levels.

Now your tank is crystal clear and you can be happy that "Cycle" worked for you right?... hehe.

 

[countrygirl]

LOL k no more cycle

 

[Allivymar]

Heh, just to add some more info.

Cycle contains mostly heterotrophic bacteria. Heterotrophic bacteria will eat ammonia IF there is no organic material. If there is, it won't touch the ammonia. There is some nitrifying bacteria which chows on nitrites in it, but theres no point to having nitrite eaters if theres no nitrites eh? The folks over at BioSpira did a bunch of research and discovered the correct nitrifying bacteria (nitrospira, nitrosospira). Their reports are peer reviewed, meaning unbiased researchers checked it out and approved. My guess is they managed to get a patent, so no one else has a product with the correct nitrifying bacteria.

Keep in mind lfs don't make their money off the fish. They make it off the supporting products like cycle. So heck yeah they are going to push it LOL

Now tsk tsk countrygirl; impatience is definitely not a virtue in this obsession..erm hobby LOL and I speak from experience. I'm curious, why the long wait to begin with?

Very cool about the baby Acara!

How are you going to gravel vac the tank if you can't reach the bottom? Thats the basis for my concern about getting spined; the bottom of the tank will need to be cleaned regularly to keep the detritus from overwhelming the tank and the water parameters.

 

[countrygirl]

I will be careful. I get so much different information from so many different people. Some say don't bother with the water changes because of the size of the tank, type of filter and siz of pump. Some, like you say do it EVERY DAY without fail. Yikes don't know what to do. I will keep a very close eye on the levels and test the water every day, if I even have a slight discoloration on the amonia test I will do a 25% water change.

I have learned quite a bit about cycling through all of this. My son's 30 gallon aquarium he got for Christmas I water changed on the 4th day, the 8th day, then every week, once a month went by I reduced the water changes to whenever the water got cloudy. Now I change the water once a month and his tank is chrystal clear and so healthy we have a breeding pair of Angelfish in there already.

I have even had people tell me to overfeed the fish like crazy so the bacteria will grow faster, and people tell me to barely feed them so they don't produce much waste. It's so hard to know what to do.

 

[countrygirl]

Well the gravel vac we have is quite large and reaches the bottom from the top. our stand with tank on top is over five feet tall. But standing on the little step ladder I have I should be able to vac it no problem. The stingrays are nice, I don't think they would ever sting me, if they ever did, their sting is not deadly. I did research on that before getting them and apparently the problem is if the sting gets infected.

We waited so long cause the tank was a huge expense so we built the stand slowly and then when income tax cam in we had the custome built tank delivered and set up. The fish were bought and paid for thanks to gift certificates at work and a very nice and patient salesman lol

 

[AtodaJ]

You do realize you HAVE to post pictures now. hehehe I have to see that tank, the Eel and the stingrays. Does the Leopard look like this:

and the other like this:

 

[Allivymar]

Basically you want to keep the water as clean as possible, and by that I don't mean crystal clear; nitrogenous wastes are transparent. You want 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and below 40ppm nitrates. Monthly changes means big buildup of DOCs (dissolved organic compounds) which can really kick up nitrates. Also, the less frequent the water changes, the more acidic the water becomes. That can be an issue if your pH is much higher; pH changes can cause problems.

Keep a close eye on all the water parameters. While I don't think daily changes would be needed (eeek!), monthly is too far apart. Weekly should be fine. Plus, clean fresh treated water is always a good thing! Keep in mind fish don't live in their own waste; fresh water is usually being introduced to most bodies of water, be it by rain or springs or runoff.

Oh! Don't overfeed! It will mess up your water parameters something awful. Yes, the nitrifying bacteria need ammonia to eat, but ammonia is deadly to fish. Better to have a slow cycle then dead fish.

 

[countrygirl]

yep those are my babies, well they look like them anyway. Weekly water changes forever or weekly during the cycle period? I will do a water change whenever I have even a slight change in color on the amonia readout. That is a heck of a water change but I really don't want to lose any fish. I successfully cycled my sons 30 gallon with too many fish in it (as I since found out) but it worked out fine with no fish loss. The pump on the tank pumps 1200 gallons per hour, does that not help decrease the amonia? Or not until the bacteria are established?

 

[Allivymar]

Water changes during the cycle are dictated by the nitrogenous waste levels; could be daily, could be weekly, could be a more then once a day (although thats rarely needed). Weekly changes are maintainance; while I don't have a 250g tank, I am running 6 tanks, from 55g to 8g that are changed weekly (trust me LOL doing one large tank is MUCH less time consuming, but I want my guys to remain healthy and happy). Again, if you want your guys to remain really healthy, they will NEED that clean fresh treated water added, and the older tank water removed. You may be able to get away with a water change every 2 weeks, but that will depend on how much waste your guys produce.

The filter will pull out larger bits of detritus, but doesn't remove ammonia or nitrites; only the bacteria do that. The bacteria will colonise the filter media, as well as any surface they can find (they aren't in the water column). Thing is, even the filter won't removed DOCs; they're too small. Thats one of the reasons water changes are so necessary. Diatom filters will, just FYI.

I also cycled my first tank with too many fish (2 angelfish in a 8g hex tank), then I added a pleco! I never water changed; just topped off the tank LOL That was before I had a clue. I was fortunate I didn't kill the fish, but I can be sure now they are getting the best of care. I was lucky, or rather they were.

Urk, 1200gph filter? You may want to add another one at some point. That's less then 5x the tank amount per hour, and thats a big tank for the filter to work with. Most folks here run around 5-10x the tank amount per hour; I have between 6 and 12.5x my tank amounts on all my tanks.

Lastly, make sure you test for nitrites and nitrates as well! Nitrites are also deadly to fish, and nitrates will indicate how messy the tank is; you want zero nitrites in the tank, and below 40ppm nitrates.

 

[ChileRelleno]

Yo Countrygirl, A nice thing for you to invest in would be a 75 gal capacity tank of some type just to age and/or pretreat water for your tank maintenance. Have it in some close proximity to your new tank and a nearby drain for old water, add hoses and a reversible pump for siphoning and refilling with quick connections and you could cut your workload. Imagine always having water ready for maintenance and emergencies ...

 

[ChileRelleno]

doubleclick

 

[countrygirl]

Well it is day 3 and good news. All fish are fine and active. We have done a 25% water change yesterday and today and testing the water with my kit tells me pH 7.4, Ammonia 0 and Nitrates 0. The guy that built the tank took some water and tested it on his expensive machine and he said good news. Amonia 0.1 Nitrates 0.24 and pH 7.2. The water is cloudy though. We have a filter in the prefilter that looks like quilting batting and we are changing that every two hours. Hopefully the bioballs will get populated with bacteria fast since we added the gunk from the filter of the tank my fish were in at the pet store; directly to the wet/dry filter.