Deficiencies and toxicities of plant nutrients.

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Seachem trace 2 times a week at twice recommended dose
Seachem flourish has traces too. Thats three times a week.
 
I gave my opinion. I have too much respect for you guys. Im not into conflict on forums. I agree with 85 percent of your findings.
 
flchamp89 said:
I gave my opinion. I have too much respect for you guys. Im not into conflict on forums. I agree with 85 percent of your findings.
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Ok no worries [emoji846] it not conflict if you disagree. Merely helps us to ask more questions and understand things as a group. I don't have much scientific basis to go at at present. I'm basing things mostly on overwhelming similarities in mine and others experiences. If I make changes that work I'll start looking more in to the why's. I'm hoping for more test subjects (people in a similar boat) to join in and more discussion.
 
I think low gh is a big factor. I think that the most valuable piece of info thats been posted. I do not think eco had a cec so high that it can cause tox at the levels we are using. I think if you are at 50 par or so your fert schedule would of been fine. If you are low par low co2 high nutrients plants suck it all up. Wants everything it can get. If your high par high co2 and recommended nutrients it wont be enough.
 
flchamp89 said:
I think low gh is a big factor. I think that the most valuable piece of info thats been posted. I do not think eco had a cec so high that it can cause tox at the levels we are using. I think if you are at 50 par or so your fert schedule would of been fine. If you are low par low co2 high nutrients plants suck it all up. Wants everything it can get. If your high par high co2 and recommended nutrients it wont be enough.
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At EI levels using CSM+B? My plants had everything that could have wanted. When they didn't have everything they wanted I got a carpet of Monte Carlo.

Actually, I think in my case I agree with the eco aspect.
 
So hard to tell with different tanks, different source water, plants, etc.

I've gone through heaps of different plants to find ones that work.

Where I buy from now I'm told the lfs owner grows in backyard. So I know they are growing in local water and I should have a chance.

Interestingly I do find dosing a small amount of powdered calcium carbonate each week seems to help.
 
Ya idk so many variables like we all have said. Id like to see your setup with original ferts, plants, and 50 par. If I could pick a perfect par id pick 50 give or take. I do know I wish I never had eco. Its a waste of money as far as im concerned. My tank went along time with virtually zero growth. Seemed like only thing working was the tabs. I know my macro and micro was too low combined with low par. As macro/micro increased plants grew. No brainer right...so by this time im thinking wheres my cec. Plants start show signs of nutrient deficiency. I increase plants are bigger ....makes sense. But im not feeling any cec. Im feel like im in poor sand. So lots of macro and micro..wheres my algae. A touch of bba. I had inconsistent co2 first 4.5 months. So a touch of it on a slow grower like parva makes sense. Clado...well I believe I introduced it from collecting some bacopa. But even it was minor by any standard. So is it true nutrients have little to no impact on algae. Im researching ammonia vs algae. I believe if I had twice the par doing everything im doing now id be over ran with bba and gsa at the least. I have what's considered slow growing plants. Yet compared to what others say it does not seem they are really slow. I have some rotala that has to be 4ft. Anubias new leaf or more every week. Crypt...Idk what im gonna do in few months its a beast. So without more fast stems where are my excess nutrients going and wheres my algae.

My tds was 400 range. 150ish tap due to phosphates. Im pulling it down as I lost all my sakura. Ghosts hanging in. Tds so high because I cycle old school with no wc first few months so I started high.
 
I don't think nutrients directly CAUSE algae but they definitely help it along. No, for me personally the cause has to be some other kind of trigger such as decaying organic matter. Ammonia could be the trigger for this as it's released from plants or other enzymes or chemicals for that matter but what about heavy metal damage? Or lack of co2 or nutrient deficiencies causing breakdown of plants? triggers?

Here's a question. Why would algae grow? Why is it there?
 
Ammonia....I think needs more consideration. These popular scapes dont have alot of overall mass. I knew I had a great chance of failure from lack of stability of parameters and water quality in a 10g. So I crammed it full. A few guppies and parameters never move
 
The original literature RE toxicity is about CMS+B. I'm not on a which hunt to target this trace mix specifically but I certainly think its initial popularity spawned other to follow suit. Hence the trace mix I posted earlier is even more potent than CSM+B in some nutrients but less so in others. My tap water per litre has more of certain traces than CSM+B will provide at weekend end dosed 3 x a week but it also has significantly LESS than some of the others. So we have osmocote or root tabs, dry powders or liquids, source waters and fish food all adding traces into the water.

Walstad's book has some fantastic information about the factors that are involved in metal toxicity. She takes it very seriously. Soft water equals little protection. Chelates means longer lasting, no organic matter equals little protection from heavy metals. Some species can hyper accumulate and show no symptoms, others can melt instantly. I think most that saw extreme symptoms had osmocote and were dosing dry traces. Dry traces for a kick off pose a problem in themselves because you don't know how much fe you are picking up with each spoonful.

Like you both say. Many things at play but there's to much on the contrary to say that it is not possible to induce (not aimed at anyone in particular)

Besides I have to fix my tank first by making educated changes. I think I can grow plants ok now but the algae is going to be a PITA. I think I've created some super strain of BBA.
 
I think the gh is huge facor. Im on my second attempt with the extremely easy b.pennywort. Just slowly want to melt away. I put some healthy pieces in another tank. No dosing. Even worse. So dosing helped but after my experience and research it seems to prefer soft water.
 
I thought this was worth documenting here. Since hardening my water with calcium and mgso4 (GH is at 9 my kh is at 5) and also minimising micro dosage (0.2g 2x per week) look at the difference in the growth of my stems. Before when I had a suspected toxicity my leaves were extremely far apart. Now the growth is much tighter together and the plant is looking much healthier.

Biggest change has been in the milfoil.

Few pics of what I'm talking about:
http://pho.to/AcbcO
 
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