Don’t want to fail again, please advice.

[Heru]

Dear forum community,
About two weeks ago my angle fish laid eggs for the first time on the vertical side of a stone decor . But all of these eggs disappeared in a couple of days. First I thought the bigger bottom feeder ate them. I have 3 bottom feeders on my 60 gallon tank two of them are very small. I also have a total of 4 angle fish in that same tank.
The next day I saw new eggs were laid in a different location. This time they’re on the leaf. But this time there were only a few, not more than 20s.
I immediately removed other angle fish and the big bottom feeders to a 10 gallon tank. So in my 60 gallon tank I only had 2 parents angle fish guarding their eggs and 2 tiny bottom feeders.
A few weeks later I saw tails came out from these tiny eggs and they started to wiggle. After around 2 weeks they became baby fishes swimming around Mom & Dad Angle fish. They’re very protective of their babies, kept them close by all the time and scared off the two bottom feeders when they started to get closer.
But each day when I counted the amount of these babies they’re reduced by a couple. So I thought may be these tiny bottom feeders ate them at night. I then removed them out from the tank too.
But almost every morning the babies count still reduced by one or two until finally I only had 1 baby left. This one lasted for three days before it finally disappeared too. Up to this point I still saw Mom & Dad were very protective, it didn’t seem possible they ate them.
I fed the babies with Ultra Fresh Baby Fish Food, 50% Sword Prawns Shrimps, Slow Sinking, Substitute for Baby Brine Shrimp from Fresh & Natural from Amazon.
I had no time to hatch baby brine shrimp. The Ultra Fresh Baby Fish Food have good reviews.
With all that said, today I saw hundred of newly eggs being laid again on the leafs by angle fish Mom. This is the third times she laid eggs. I’m very nervous now because I don’t know what to do.
Should I remove both Mom & Dad away from their eggs now? They seem to be very good in guarding their eggs and babies in the past. But what causing previous babies disappearance (even after all other fishes had been remove.) still puzzles me.

I read a lot since and many articles say it’s not necessary to remove the parents because angle fish is very caring toward their babies.

If I have to remove the eggs away from their parents, should I just cut out the leafs (where the eggs sit on) and move them to a different tank? I only have 2 small tanks.
The 10 gallon tank already occupied by 3 bottom feeders and 2 adult angle fish. It’ll be too crowded if I add the parents to this tank and leave the eggs in the 60 gallon tank.
I also have an empty 5 gallon tank so I can use this tank for the eggs. Can I move these leafs to this tank???? PLEASE HELP! as much as I can I don’t want to fail again this time. THANK
YOU!!!

 

[Andy Sager]

I can start by saying, after breeding hundreds of pairs of Angelfish, not all parents are good parents. Each pair will have individual traits so please do not use any "blanket" information as the only way. Your experiences may vary. I will only offer you generalizations I have seen over the years and many pairs.

Sadly, Angelfish genetics these days are weaker than in the past. The fact that you got living fry on the first spawn is a rarity. ( Since this " second " spawn was the next day, it's part of the first spawn in my book. ) I believe the current hatch to juvenile stage is approx 60% so the disappearing fry is not unusual. ( Back in the 60s when I got started with Angels, the rate was 90-95% ) That said, extensive studies have shown that newly hatched baby brine shrimp is the best first food for Angelfish fry so the fry may have died from lack of food or malnutrition. Some of today's varieties of Angelfish produce fry that are too small for Newly Hatched brine so a diet of other micro foods are needed for approx 1 week to get them large enough to feed on Newly Hatched brine.

Usually, if the parents are going to eat their spawn, they eat the whole thing so if you are losing the fry one or two at a time, there is another reason. Your losing the big spawn could be from the bottom feeder(s) or the other Angels since fish eggs are a prized meal for any fish. If the eggs were not fertilized and started turning white, the parents usually will remove them. Sometimes this creates "egg eaters" where the fish will constantly eat their spawns whether they are good or not. It doesn't sound like this is the case here due to the second spawn but it's something you should keep your eye on. As I said, first spawn survivors are a rarity. Usually it takes a few spawns for the newly adult fish to understand all the dynamics of breeding and caring for their young.

I've found the best set up for breeding is a bare bottom tank with only the breeding pair in it. I have used small bristle nose plecos in these tanks to keep the glass clean but removed them when the they were large enough to eat the eggs. Any bottom feeders ( i.e. catfish varieties) have the potential for eating the spawn so I do not use or recommend them. If necessary, I will use small snails as a clean up crew. Having a bare bottom also helps the fry find the food more easily. It also makes for easier cleaning of any extra food that may have gone uneaten.

Your timings seem to be a puzzle since Angelfish eggs usually hatch in 3 days ( depending on temperature) then approx 1 week later they are swimming. Your seeing your eggs hatching 2 weeks later sounds like it may have been a different spawn. If not, it means your temperatures are too low. Best temperature for breeding is 78-82 degrees. The warmer the water, the faster the eggs and fry develop. Angelfish can breed every 7-10 days if they are healthy. I've had pairs spawn as quickly as every 7 days and as long as once a month. The best you can do is provide the proper conditions and et nature take it's course.

As a commercial breeder, I didn't let the parents tend the eggs so they were removed to a bare 10 gal tank. Since your parents successfully hatched a spawn, you might want to allow the parents to care for the eggs for the first couple of days then remove the spawn to the new tank so they hatch in there. ( Moving eggs is much easier and less stressful than moving fry)

So these are the basics. I have a thread here documenting my last Angelfish hatchery that may help you. https://www.aquariumadvice.com/foru...-a-hatchery-and-everything-angels-324616.html As you read through it, you can see some of the trials and tribulations of breeding these fish and how I was able to raise millions of Angelfish to market.

Hope this helps.

 

[Heru]

Hi Andy ,
Thank you so very much for your thorough explanation very appreciated! I’m not sure if I’m responding to you correctly.
For the timing I may be wrong since I was panic and wasn’t sure what to do so I may remember the day mistakenly.
So in short I may have to cut out the leafs and remove those eggs to a different tank. But one more question if I may, it’s 24 hrs from the time I saw these eggs I started to see a few eggs turned to white (see picture). Should I do something with them but how or don’t do anything with it.

I can start by saying, after breeding hundreds of pairs of Angelfish, not all parents are good parents. Each pair will have individual traits so please do not use any "blanket" information as the only way. Your experiences may vary. I will only offer you generalizations I have seen over the years and many pairs.

Sadly, Angelfish genetics these days are weaker than in the past. The fact that you got living fry on the first spawn is a rarity. ( Since this " second " spawn was the next day, it's part of the first spawn in my book. ) I believe the current hatch to juvenile stage is approx 60% so the disappearing fry is not unusual. ( Back in the 60s when I got started with Angels, the rate was 90-95% ) That said, extensive studies have shown that newly hatched baby brine shrimp is the best first food for Angelfish fry so the fry may have died from lack of food or malnutrition. Some of today's varieties of Angelfish produce fry that are too small for Newly Hatched brine so a diet of other micro foods are needed for approx 1 week to get them large enough to feed on Newly Hatched brine.

Usually, if the parents are going to eat their spawn, they eat the whole thing so if you are losing the fry one or two at a time, there is another reason. Your losing the big spawn could be from the bottom feeder(s) or the other Angels since fish eggs are a prized meal for any fish. If the eggs were not fertilized and started turning white, the parents usually will remove them. Sometimes this creates "egg eaters" where the fish will constantly eat their spawns whether they are good or not. It doesn't sound like this is the case here due to the second spawn but it's something you should keep your eye on. As I said, first spawn survivors are a rarity. Usually it takes a few spawns for the newly adult fish to understand all the dynamics of breeding and caring for their young.

I've found the best set up for breeding is a bare bottom tank with only the breeding pair in it. I have used small bristle nose plecos in these tanks to keep the glass clean but removed them when the they were large enough to eat the eggs. Any bottom feeders ( i.e. catfish varieties) have the potential for eating the spawn so I do not use or recommend them. If necessary, I will use small snails as a clean up crew. Having a bare bottom also helps the fry find the food more easily. It also makes for easier cleaning of any extra food that may have gone uneaten.

Your timings seem to be a puzzle since Angelfish eggs usually hatch in 3 days ( depending on temperature) then approx 1 week later they are swimming. Your seeing your eggs hatching 2 weeks later sounds like it may have been a different spawn. If not, it means your temperatures are too low. Best temperature for breeding is 78-82 degrees. The warmer the water, the faster the eggs and fry develop. Angelfish can breed every 7-10 days if they are healthy. I've had pairs spawn as quickly as every 7 days and as long as once a month. The best you can do is provide the proper conditions and et nature take it's course.

As a commercial breeder, I didn't let the parents tend the eggs so they were removed to a bare 10 gal tank. Since your parents successfully hatched a spawn, you might want to allow the parents to care for the eggs for the first couple of days then remove the spawn to the new tank so they hatch in there. ( Moving eggs is much easier and less stressful than moving fry)

So these are the basics. I have a thread here documenting my last Angelfish hatchery that may help you. https://www.aquariumadvice.com/foru...-a-hatchery-and-everything-angels-324616.html As you read through it, you can see some of the trials and tribulations of breeding these fish and how I was able to raise millions of Angelfish to market.

Hope this helps.

 

[Andy Sager]

Hi Andy ,
Thank you so very much for your thorough explanation very appreciated! I’m not sure if I’m responding to you correctly.
For the timing I may be wrong since I was panic and wasn’t sure what to do so I may remember the day mistakenly.
So in short I may have to cut out the leafs and remove those eggs to a different tank. But one more question if I may, it’s 24 hrs from the time I saw these eggs I started to see a few eggs turned to white (see picture). Should I do something with them but how or don’t do anything with it.

Not to worry, I got just as excited the first time I saw my Angels breeding that marking down dates and times was furthest from my mind. LOL It's only the number of times I've seen it that marking my tanks became mandatory since I was never going to remember all the specifics for every pair. I usually put the date of spawn, time ( if I know it or just a.m or p.m.) of spawn and date of hatch. That info comes in handy to help determine when to start brine shrimp eggs or other food types.

If the parents are still with the leaf, I'd leave the white ones alone. They should take care of removing them. If you remove the leaf closer to when they should hatch, I'd not be too concerned about them in the hatching tank but you will want to remove the leaf as soon as the eggs hatch so that they don't have time to fungus over.

When it comes to artificially hatching the eggs, the best setup is having an air stone gently bubbling in front of the eggs to keep any debris from landing on them and contaminating the eggs. ( You can see this set up in my wigglers thread) That's not so easy to do when you are taking just a leaf. If you were going to do that, I'd cut the leaf as far down as you can so you have a stem you could attach ( usually by rubber band) to something that will allow the leaf to remain upright. I've used everything from larger rocks to driftwood to PVC parts ( usually 1 1/2" - 2" couplers) so that it's stable on the bottom to attach the eggs to. The important thing is that you do all this attaching underwater so that the eggs don't get dried out or jostled too much.
I like to use new water for hatching the eggs in but make sure you get the water parameters the same as what they are coming from. If you can't do that, take some water out of the breeder tank for hatching.

 

[Heru]

Andy,
I thought I’m learning a lot about breeding from you but apparently I also learned to be a better self-control man from now. I will start labelling my tank too.
Today I set up my 5 gallon tank but I’m expecting to get a new heater shipment tomorrow. Once the water temperature in a new tank matches the big tank I’ll move the leafs over per your instruction. I already have air stone so I’ll use them in the 5 gallon tank. I also bought baby brine shrimp along with a heater. Hopefully this time I’ll get luckier. I’ll update you with any new development in here Andy. Thanks again!

Not to worry, I got just as excited the first time I saw my Angels breeding that marking down dates and times was furthest from my mind. LOL It's only the number of times I've seen it that marking my tanks became mandatory since I was never going to remember all the specifics for every pair. I usually put the date of spawn, time ( if I know it or just a.m or p.m.) of spawn and date of hatch. That info comes in handy to help determine when to start brine shrimp eggs or other food types.

If the parents are still with the leaf, I'd leave the white ones alone. They should take care of removing them. If you remove the leaf closer to when they should hatch, I'd not be too concerned about them in the hatching tank but you will want to remove the leaf as soon as the eggs hatch so that they don't have time to fungus over.

When it comes to artificially hatching the eggs, the best setup is having an air stone gently bubbling in front of the eggs to keep any debris from landing on them and contaminating the eggs. ( You can see this set up in my wigglers thread) That's not so easy to do when you are taking just a leaf. If you were going to do that, I'd cut the leaf as far down as you can so you have a stem you could attach ( usually by rubber band) to something that will allow the leaf to remain upright. I've used everything from larger rocks to driftwood to PVC parts ( usually 1 1/2" - 2" couplers) so that it's stable on the bottom to attach the eggs to. The important thing is that you do all this attaching underwater so that the eggs don't get dried out or jostled too much.
I like to use new water for hatching the eggs in but make sure you get the water parameters the same as what they are coming from. If you can't do that, take some water out of the breeder tank for hatching.

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy,
I thought I’m learning a lot about breeding from you but apparently I also learned to be a better self-control man from now. I will start labelling my tank too.
Today I set up my 5 gallon tank but I’m expecting to get a new heater shipment tomorrow. Once the water temperature in a new tank matches the big tank I’ll move the leafs over per your instruction. I already have air stone so I’ll use them in the 5 gallon tank. I also bought baby brine shrimp along with a heater. Hopefully this time I’ll get luckier. I’ll update you with any new development in here Andy. Thanks again!

I have to laugh at your opening sentence because while breeding fish is fun, you will find it's also a test of your willingness to adapt to a different method of fish keeping. As you can read in my thread, there can be a lot, I mean A LOT of surprises.

Since Angels can breeder faster than your plants can regrow leaves, you may want to look into breeding slates. ( i.e. https://www.amazon.com/Angelfish-Breeding-Acrylic-simulates-Provides/dp/B0966BJ96H ) This one might work for your pair since they are already breeding on something green. Having a larger area to spawn on should help keep all the eggs on the one surface. I'm not sure if Amazon is the cheapest place to find these but I'll let you do the research for places more local or cheaper to you.

Good luck with the spawn and keep us posted.

 

[Heru]

Hi Andy, I agreed! Everyday is a surprise day. This morning I found out almost all eggs on one leaf is completely white! . On the other leaf there are only 4 whites but all the “good eggs” are totally GONE!. so I ended up with zero healthy egg��������������

I guess I may have to move these two parents in the 5 gallon tank and hoping when she spawn again I just need to move the parents out of the 5 gallon tank? Will that work Andy?

 

[Heru]

Hi Andy,
Another surprise this morning when I about to remove the leafs with dead/diseased eggs. I spotted a very few wiggling eggs on one of my decorative stone that weren’t there yesterday. Then these eggs were moved again to the other side of the stone. It must have been the Mom who moved them. Also, on the leaf where most eggs are white I ended up not removing them since I also see three wiggling eggs. The Dad fish became SO AGGRESSIVE when my hand about to touch that leaf. (Pictures attached). So for now I just leave them where they are until they become swimming baby angle fish. Than I’ll move them to the 5 gallon tank by themselves & remove the white eggs. What do you think.

Hi Andy, I agreed! Everyday is a surprise day. This morning I found out almost all eggs on one leaf is completely white! . On the other leaf there are only 4 whites but all the “good eggs” are totally GONE!. so I ended up with zero healthy egg��������������

I guess I may have to move these two parents in the 5 gallon tank and hoping when she spawn again I just need to move the parents out of the 5 gallon tank? Will that work Andy?

 

[Andy Sager]

As I said, its unusual to have very good first spawns but what you did have was a confirmation that you have a fertile pair and that's actually more important than the fry at this point.
As for the fry being moved, the parents will do that in an effort to hide them from possible predators. ( Don't be surprised if they get moved again. Watch the parent's behavior to find out where they moved them to. )That's fine on a hobbyist level but for a commercial breeder, that can make you crazy!!!
As for putting the parents into the 5 gal, that is not a good idea. The tank is too small for a breeding pair. Most breeders use a 20 gal high for their pairs, I used standard 10 gals. ( More work but less space.)
For just a few fry, putting them in the 5 when they start to free swim should work but raising them to a reasonable size will require a larger tank. I use when they sprout their Dorsal and Anal fins as a guide as to when to move them.

As for the pair, if your only options are the tank they are in now or the 5 gal, I'd leave them where they are. When you move breeders, you risk them not handling the move or them freaking out and stop spawning. Since yours are young fish ( I presume), I'd make a decision on what size tank you want to make their forever tank and move them just the one time. That or leave them in the tank they are in and either see if they will parent raise the fry or use smaller tanks to hatch out the spawns. There are pluses and minuses to both.

In the final analysis, you basically need 3-4 tanks for every pair of Angelfish you breed. One holds the breeders, one to hatch the eggs in and one to grow out the fry. The 4th tank is for the next spawn. My setup was a 10 for the breeders, a 10 for the hatching and a 25-30 gal breeder tank for growing them out. ( I had to use 2 or 3 of those grow out tanks for the more mature pairs' spawns.) You'll eventually need to decide what you plan to do with all the fish you can potentially have. Angels are prolific breeders and you could possibly have 300-400 fry per spawn every 7-10 days as the fish get more mature.