Endler's dying mysteriously?

[PJFISH]

Hi all - I have a 29g tank that is filled with mostly Endler's with a few other fish as well. There are approximately 20-25 presently, but there were quite a few more going back to last summer when I began introducing females into the tank. Recently I've been losing about 1 fish a day, only the Endler's, not any others or the shrimp , which seem fine and reproducing. I do weekly WC of about 40% and tested the water today. Ph is about 7.2-7.6, Ammonia is 0 and nitrates are 20, which has been consistent. Is it possible that the inbreeding between these fish is causing premature deaths? Almost all of the Endler's have come from one purchase, with no new fish added since then. Also no evidence of any disease, just here one day gone the next! What does everyone think?


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[PJFISH]

Pleeease heeellllpppp!


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[coralbandit]

Hard to just guess and be even close?
Is a picture of live and dead fish possible?
Clean water and quick deaths usually take me towards columnaris but I can't say that with any certainty for you yet.

 

[PJFISH]

Hard to just guess and be even close?
Is a picture of live and dead fish possible?
Clean water and quick deaths usually take me towards columnaris but I can't say that with any certainty for you yet.

Next time I'll try to take pictures. It's a real mystery to me, going to look up columnaris.


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[PJFISH]

I m not sure if it's columnaris, but should I just treat with Para Guard just in case?


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[RackinRocky]

Columnaris is horrible. I lost probably in excess of 40 fish from it. Wiped out almost my whole tank. Also known as fish tuberculosis, I got a skin condition from cleaning a filter from the tank that had harbored the columnaris. I cut my finger slightly on the filter, and that's all it took. I hadn't had any deaths in over a year, yet I caught this nasty thing, and it also caused cellulitis. I've been on STRONG antibiotics for 6 weeks now, have had three abscesses drained surgically, and I have to pack the abscesses daily and keep it bandaged. A nurse was ordered by the doctor to check on me in my home between visits. I have another lesion that may also abscess. We're keeping an eye on it. So if you even suspect columnaris, wear water tight gloves AT ALL TIMES when you get anywhere near that fish tank! It's not worth it. It can even be deadly. And you have to remain on antibiotics which are hard on the body for months, and for some, a year or more. Not worth it! I learned a big lesson from this.

 

[PJFISH]

Columnaris is horrible. I lost probably in excess of 40 fish from it. Wiped out almost my whole tank. Also known as fish tuberculosis, I got a skin condition from cleaning a filter from the tank that had harbored the columnaris. I cut my finger slightly on the filter, and that's all it took. I hadn't had any deaths in over a year, yet I caught this nasty thing, and it also caused cellulitis. I've been on STRONG antibiotics for 6 weeks now, have had three abscesses drained surgically, and I have to pack the abscesses daily and keep it bandaged. A nurse was ordered by the doctor to check on me in my home between visits. I have another lesion that may also abscess. We're keeping an eye on it. So if you even suspect columnaris, wear water tight gloves AT ALL TIMES when you get anywhere near that fish tank! It's not worth it. It can even be deadly. And you have to remain on antibiotics which are hard on the body for months, and for some, a year or more. Not worth it! I learned a big lesson from this.

Wow, that's a really terrible turn of events! Hope you're feeling somewhat better. I'm really not sure what the actual issue is right now, but I will take your advice just in case!


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[PJFISH]

Hard to just guess and be even close?
Is a picture of live and dead fish possible?
Clean water and quick deaths usually take me towards columnaris but I can't say that with any certainty for you yet.

How would you find out for sure what's in the water? Is there a test?


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[biondoa]

this sounds horrifying!!!!! Please tell more about columnaris and what the symptoms are.

 

[coralbandit]

Fish TB and columnaris are two completely different things.
Unfortunatley RR sounds like they have run into fish TB not columnaris.
All of my extensive reading on columnaris has never revealed a human contamination link.
Now fish TB on the other hand sound exactly like what RR is dealing with.
Plenty of links on TB out there and some written by aquarist that have contracted it.
Fish TB (Mycobacterium marinum) FAQ , by Dr. Adrian Lawler

 

[RackinRocky]

Yes, coralbandit, that's exactly what it is--Mycobacterium marinum. I thought I had read somewhere online that fish TB and columnaris were the same. My mistake there. Still, what I have can be contracted from a fish aquarium, and I happened to get an especially aggressive case of it. The abscesses are still being packed (after a week) and the antibiotics are starting to cause trouble, not to mention they totally drain me. I will never have another fish tank when my fish I have are gone because I don't ever want to go through this again (if I'm ever able to get rid of it entirely). As it is, my husband has to do all water changes on the 55, 20 and 10, per the doctor. He won't even let me do it with gloves. Not fair to my hubby, since it's my hobby, not his. I have another bump that may turn into an abscess. I'm hoping it won't. I can't take much more of this.

 

[PJFISH]

Fish TB and columnaris are two completely different things.
Unfortunatley RR sounds like they have run into fish TB not columnaris.
All of my extensive reading on columnaris has never revealed a human contamination link.
Now fish TB on the other hand sound exactly like what RR is dealing with.
Plenty of links on TB out there and some written by aquarist that have contracted it.
Fish TB (Mycobacterium marinum) FAQ , by Dr. Adrian Lawler

Do you think it's possible that the problem I'm facing with the Endler's is genetically based, like from inbreeding?


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[coralbandit]

Yes it could be from inbreeding.
I had similar with 2+ year old swordtails a couple years ago.
No signs till the day before death!
It was columnaris.
Finally, since Columnaris is an opportunistic aerobic infection even a well maintained aquarium can suffer from a Columnaris infection with even a slight opportunity for infection (assuming this bacterial pathogen is present). A common portal for a Columnaris infection is simply an older and weaker fish. Old age allows many opportunistic infections to get a foothold in at least the fish in question.
Taken from ;
Fish Columnaris | Fungus & Saprolegnia | Treatment & Prevention




http://www.myaquariumclub.com/columnaris-and-what-i-have-learned...-1689.html
Both good links mentioning the internal strain with no symptoms.
RR sorry you have to go through all this.
The dr in the link on the TB is great to speak with and has a ton of info, as they were /are infected also!
They have responded to every email I ever sent.

 

[PJFISH]

Alright! I'm completely baffled, another dead fish today, again no outward or obvious signs of illness. Just swimming near the bottom then dead. Had been dosing Para Guard, but don't want to overdue it with shrimp in the tank. All the Endler's are a little over a year old, all bred in my tank. I actually have s few fish that aren't Endler's that are double the age and they seem fine! What in the world is going on? Please I'll listen to any ideas, however crazy!


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[TMRC Exotics]

Random sounding question but I haven't seen it mentioned, is their poo normal? Not stringy and white? Could be some internal parasites. (Worms). Has the age of the fish dying been similar? Possibly same generations or older fish? Guppies who breed in my experience rarely live three years.

 

[enrgizerbunny]

Yes, coralbandit, that's exactly what it is--Mycobacterium marinum. I thought I had read somewhere online that fish TB and columnaris were the same. My mistake there. Still, what I have can be contracted from a fish aquarium, and I happened to get an especially aggressive case of it. The abscesses are still being packed (after a week) and the antibiotics are starting to cause trouble, not to mention they totally drain me. I will never have another fish tank when my fish I have are gone because I don't ever want to go through this again (if I'm ever able to get rid of it entirely). As it is, my husband has to do all water changes on the 55, 20 and 10, per the doctor. He won't even let me do it with gloves. Not fair to my hubby, since it's my hobby, not his. I have another bump that may turn into an abscess. I'm hoping it won't. I can't take much more of this.

That sounds terrible. I would be packing my wounds with peroxide and then gauze- then again I don't go to the doctor until I can't get results. (Had internal parasites that I did myself of without medical treatment)

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[PJFISH]

Random sounding question but I haven't seen it mentioned, is their poo normal? Not stringy and white? Could be some internal parasites. (Worms). Has the age of the fish dying been similar? Possibly same generations or older fish? Guppies who breed in my experience rarely live three years.

I will keep an eye on their poop, it's usually multicolored because of the frozen and flake foods, may have some white in it. Yes, the ages of the fish are similar. Most were either born last summer or this spring. I'm hoping it's just some genetic abnormality


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[RackinRocky]

Bunny, the doctor is doing an excellent job, even sending nurses out twice a week. My abscesses, at last, are healing over. This has been a very long couple of months, and for a while there, I believe the doctor was very concerned. He almost put me on IV antibiotics in the hospital, but when I started to respond, he decided to keep me on the oral. I will be on them for the next few months to be sure it doesn't come back. No peroxide--that delays healing. I used saline solution only to flush the abscesses and then packed and covered with a gauze pad, then wrapped with gauze daily. I no longer have to pack them. They healed beautifully. Another bump I have will not abscess, according to the doctor. It could have been life-threatening, so I really dodged the bullet.

 

[jarrod0987]

Dr. Walstad says in her book Ecology of The Planted Aquarium that fish TB has no cure as far as the fish goes and that the tank has to be sterilized. She states it loves to hang out in the top of an aquarium where the lipids like to float. For example you might see pond scum. She says she had her battles with Fish TB and that she is religious about skimming the surface (by hand in her case I believe) to keep those lipids away. It is a preventative measure. I wish I had better news. Personally, I have never had this. I hope I never do.

 

[PJFISH]

Dr. Walstad says in her book Ecology of The Planted Aquarium that fish TB has no cure as far as the fish goes and that the tank has to be sterilized. She states it loves to hang out in the top of an aquarium where the lipids like to float. For example you might see pond scum. She says she had her battles with Fish TB and that she is religious about skimming the surface (by hand in her case I believe) to keep those lipids away. It is a preventative measure. I wish I had better news. Personally, I have never had this. I hope I never do.

I'm not sure how to diagnose anything other than ich or standard diseases. That's what so frustrating, and the fact that it's just the Endler's affected. Seems to be slowing down since I've started using Para Guard, but it's a total shot in the dark. I get something at the surface a few days after a WC, but it's not like scum on a pond. It's more like a very light oily residue, which I've always chalked up to protein build up from foods. I'm really not willing to break down the tank to treat something that is undiagnosed, I've got no practical way to do it either. I'm hoping the paraguard will do the job, but I need to watch the dosing with shrimp in the tank. So frustrating!!


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