Fishless Cycle Log/Rebuild - Take II

[librarygirl]

I did the full battery of tests tonight after all the changes I made last night. I was expecting a green ammonia tube, but happily I got:

ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 40+ (a jump from last night; it was 10-20 after the full pwc)
PH 7.6

I tested two different jugs of Poland Spring and both had a PH of 6.8-7, which would be ideal on its own if it would stay that way in the tank. I'm not sure why the tank's PH is higher.

If I get hung up on this water thing the tank is going out the window.

 

[barterking85]

Don't worry to much my ph is 8.5 and I don't buffer and I don't loose fish just acclimate accordingly the fish will adjust

 

[librarygirl]

Don't worry to much my ph is 8.5 and I don't buffer and I don't loose fish just acclimate accordingly the fish will adjust

Unfortunately my issue is that I'm using Spring Water lol. I don't know what minerals are in it and if it's produced the same every batch; the two jugs I tested happen to be a good PH now, but when I tested a few months ago the same brand's PH was 6. The Pure Life seemed to be good (but again who knows if it's stable) but I can't get those jugs up the stairs. The Poland Spring....I have no idea. Could be fine, could not. Eco suggests I use pure water and add minerals but....I'm not sure what to do now. And I"m counting down the days to get fish, so I need to have stable water and know what I'm doing to make the water stable if it comes to mixing it myself.

Oi.

 

[Deckape]

Don't worry to much my ph is 8.5 and I don't buffer and I don't loose fish just acclimate accordingly the fish will adjust

I have heard trying to fix ph is like chasing a dragon. Fish are adaptaple to ph to a point. I would not try to chase the dragon. As long as the dragon is stable you'll be ok.

 

[eco23]

I did the full battery of tests tonight after all the changes I made last night. I was expecting a green ammonia tube, but happily I got:

ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 40+ (a jump from last night; it was 10-20 after the full pwc)
PH 7.6

I tested two different jugs of Poland Spring and both had a PH of 6.8-7, which would be ideal on its own if it would stay that way in the tank. I'm not sure why the tank's PH is higher.

If I get hung up on this water thing the tank is going out the window.

Here's my thoughts and advice-

First, what you have is working...no need to freak out...but it's not ideal IMO. When I first suggested spring water, it was a Hail Mary just to see if we could get things moving...turns out it did. Now when I first suggested spring water, it was strictly thinking about cycling...not stocking.

The Poland Spring you have in there now looks good. Problem is it's not consistent. You said when you tested it before it was the low 6's...now it tests at 7.4, so there's definite variations bottle to bottle. It's not really a problem, and fish can take small swings during water changes without much harm...but again, it's not ideal. Remember this is NOT about fish adjusting to your stable pH level...it is the challenge of providing a stable pH at all.

* Ideal Solution IMO- Pretend you have a saltwater tank. Start with pure water (no minerals, no chemicals) and make the water to the exact pH / kH / GH for the CPD's by using the additives designed for freshwater, purified water. There is no issue with doing this...in fact it provides perfect water for your fish. The reason you don't see us recommending this to people is because tap water works for most fish, unless it is in extreme ranges...so there's not normally a need to do this. Basically it idiot-proofs things and saves people some money by advising this. Since something is screwy with your tap water...IMO, this is one of those situations where you should break away from the norm. It also gives you a rare chance to provide absolutely perfect, ideal, pristine conditions for your CPD's.

If you did that, you've got to start with pure water. That can mean buying your own RO system, buying it in bottles or buying it from a LFS that sells it. Start with pure water, research ideal conditions for CPD's, experiment with the additives, and use it for every water change. That way you will provide the exact same water that's already in the tank every time you add new. I'm sure pure RO water (without minerals added back...so it will always be pure with the same pH) can be found at stores...probably a no-name generic brand at Walmart or Target, etc... I've never researched starting with distilled water, so I can't advise it...but in theory it should be perfect. Problem there is distilled usually costs more because the purification method is more intense.

I know it seems a bit overwhelming...just remember that every member here on the SW side does this every day. So......my recommendation summed up....start with pure water, add the RO replenishing minerals to make the ideal water conditions, enjoy your fish.

 

[librarygirl]

Here's my thoughts and advice-

First, what you have is working...no need to freak out...but it's not ideal IMO. When I first suggested spring water, it was a Hail Mary just to see if we could get things moving...turns out it did. Now when I first suggested spring water, it was strictly thinking about cycling...not stocking.

The Poland Spring you have in there now looks good. Problem is it's not consistent. You said when you tested it before it was the low 6's...now it tests at 7.4, so there's definite variations bottle to bottle. It's not really a problem, and fish can take small swings during water changes without much harm...but again, it's not ideal. Remember this is NOT about fish adjusting to your stable pH level...it is the challenge of providing a stable pH at all.

* Ideal Solution IMO- Pretend you have a saltwater tank. Start with pure water (no minerals, no chemicals) and make the water to the exact pH / kH / GH for the CPD's by using the additives designed for freshwater, purified water. There is no issue with doing this...in fact it provides perfect water for your fish. The reason you don't see us recommending this to people is because tap water works for most fish, unless it is in extreme ranges...so there's not normally a need to do this. Basically it idiot-proofs things and saves people some money by advising this. Since something is screwy with your tap water...IMO, this is one of those situations where you should break away from the norm. It also gives you a rare chance to provide absolutely perfect, ideal, pristine conditions for your CPD's.

If you did that, you've got to start with pure water. That can mean buying your own RO system, buying it in bottles or buying it from a LFS that sells it. Start with pure water, research ideal conditions for CPD's, experiment with the additives, and use it for every water change. That way you will provide the exact same water that's already in the tank every time you add new. I'm sure pure RO water (without minerals added back...so it will always be pure with the same pH) can be found at stores...probably a no-name generic brand at Walmart or Target, etc... I've never researched starting with distilled water, so I can't advise it...but in theory it should be perfect. Problem there is distilled usually costs more because the purification method is more intense.

I know it seems a bit overwhelming...just remember that every member here on the SW side does this every day. So......my recommendation summed up....start with pure water, add the RO replenishing minerals to make the ideal water conditions, enjoy your fish.

Thanks Eco! Was that the novel you typed out earlier?

Not to beat a dead horse but do you think I can do all this and get things stable by mid-week next week? Or should I hold off on ordering the fish?

This weekend I'll do some digging and shopping. I'll go to two LFS here; one is heavily into SW tanks and they sell supplies. IF I can get the RO additive here I'll get it, which will save me of having to order it and it not being here in time. IF they have a decently priced RO system I may just get that too. If not, I'll shop around for some water and I'll test a few different jugs and.....then probably ask your advice lol. If it's ok then I'll play with mixing and testing and hopefully I can get it right and consistent fairly quickly. I'll probably have to do a good sized pwc if not a full one, and then another good sized one the night before the fish come. Any flaws with that plan so far?

This is going to be an interesting weekend.

It's almost fishy time!!!

 

[eco23]

Thanks Eco! Was that the novel you typed out earlier?

Not to beat a dead horse but do you think I can do all this and get things stable by mid-week next week? Or should I hold off on ordering the fish?

This weekend I'll do some digging and shopping. I'll go to two LFS here; one is heavily into SW tanks and they sell supplies. IF I can get the RO additive here I'll get it, which will save me of having to order it and it not being here in time. IF they have a decently priced RO system I may just get that too. If not, I'll shop around for some water and I'll test a few different jugs and.....then probably ask your advice lol. If it's ok then I'll play with mixing and testing and hopefully I can get it right and consistent fairly quickly. I'll probably have to do a good sized pwc if not a full one, and then another good sized one the night before the fish come. Any flaws with that plan so far?

This is going to be an interesting weekend.

It's almost fishy time!!!

Todays earlier novel was longer because I went into detail on "spring water" vs "purified water", went over the methods, benefits, sources, production, etc... I even had information about government regulation, lol.

The plan sounds good . Obviously it would have been better to put the plan into action a week or two ago...but better late than never

Just to be clear...this is my advice of what I would personally do in your situation, and what I believe will provide your fish with ideal conditions. If you throw it out the window I understand. I agree that spring water + crushed coral should be fine...there will be small fluctuations during water changes and there's always the risk that some types will be lacking what the fish / bacteria need (certain minerals, electrolytes, etc...). Those are things the RO additives are designed for. On the brand I recommended, there's a picture of a Blue Ram (and a Discus I think)...so those are super sensitive freshwater fish which people will purify their water for in freshwater. That's exactly why they make those products...and with your situation I feel it's the perfect fit. I know how much work you've put in, I know how particular you are, I know how badly you want to provide your fish with perfect conditions...that is why the advice I've always given you is based off ideal...not just being good enough.

 

[librarygirl]

Todays earlier novel was longer because I went into detail on "spring water" vs "purified water", went over the methods, benefits, sources, production, etc... I even had information about government regulation, lol.

The plan sounds good . Obviously it would have been better to put the plan into action a week or two ago...but better late than never

Just to be clear...this is my advice of what I would personally do in your situation, and what I believe will provide your fish with ideal conditions. If you throw it out the window I understand. I agree that spring water + crushed coral should be fine...there will be small fluctuations during water changes and there's always the risk that some types will be lacking what the fish / bacteria need (certain minerals, electrolytes, etc...). Those are things the RO additives are designed for. On the brand I recommended, there's a picture of a Blue Ram (and a Discus I think)...so those are super sensitive freshwater fish which people will purify their water for in freshwater. That's exactly why they make those products...and with your situation I feel it's the perfect fit. I know how much work you've put in, I know how particular you are, I know how badly you want to provide your fish with perfect conditions...that is why the advice I've always given you is based off ideal...not just being good enough.

So......order fish this weekend yes or wait? lol I'll wait another week if you think the extra time will be needed to get the water right. I was going to email the guy Friday morning and order them, but I might be able to wait until Sun morning and still have him ship them on Monday or Tuesday. Maybe I'll see how my shopping trips go on Saturday before I contact him.

You're gonna hate me by the time this is over.

 

[eco23]

Oh, to cover the question you specifically asked (which I breezed over)...I think you can go ahead and order the fish as long as your cycle holds strong with the new water.

If you go with the RO + additives plan, but you don't get it set up before the fish get there... you can just slowly transition the fish over to the perfect water over time during pwc's. It wouldn't be any different than acclimating them just like you will when they show up at your door. You'd just be doing it even slower over the course of several pwc's.

* I was answering before I saw your post, lol . I knew you'd ask

** And no, I'll never hate you, haha. You're like me, you just want everything perfect.

 

[JimmyA]

Woaaaa! Looking good!

 

[eco23]

Okay, I did a bit of research for you on using distilled water in an aquarium. It seems it's actually a very common practice. If you don't get a chance to pick up a RO unit...distilled is definitely what I'm gonna recommend. However, purchasing the correct type of additive is going to be mandatory.

Reverse osmosis and distilled water are fairly similar in purity. The problem you're going to run into with commercially bought RO or spring water is that they're going to have the (differing) amounts minerals added in for taste. Distilled water however is 100% pure because it's not normally sold as drinking water (it tastes like crap)...but to serve other purposes around the house.

So, if you start with distilled, you're starting with 100% pure water (like I've been suggesting), and it gives you the opportunity to mix in the additive and create the ideal GH and kH for the CPD's.

Just a note on pH of distilled water. Technically, since it is pure water...it is completely neutral and will have a pH of 7. However, the second it starts mixing with air and co2 gets involved...the pH will plummet to around 5. That's why the additive is so important since the distilled water will have no buffering ability whatsoever...and its also lacking any of the minerals / electrolytes that are absolutely vital to support fish and .

To sum it up...unless you purchase a RO unit...distilled is absolutely, 100% exactly what we've been looking for. If you do another major water change before stocking (which I'd recommend)...do it with distilled and the (necessary) additive. That way we can get you started on the right foot...and if you end up switching to an RO the fish will never know the difference. In fact...distilled could also be your long term, permanent solution if you can find it at a good price in convenient sizes. If nothing else, it's worth the pain in the butt (and the back) to stock up on it now, prepare it (with the powder), switch out the water, add fish and decide what water source you'll use in the future.

I know Walmart and Target sell it for (relatively) dirt cheap under some generic brand.

So unless a new RO system is in the near future...distilled water + additives = perfect, ideal, pristine wonderful water for your new fish

 

[librarygirl]

Okay, I did a bit of research for you on using distilled water in an aquarium. It seems it's actually a very common practice. If you don't get a chance to pick up a RO unit...distilled is definitely what I'm gonna recommend. However, purchasing the correct type of additive is going to be mandatory.

Reverse osmosis and distilled water are fairly similar in purity. The problem you're going to run into with commercially bought RO or spring water is that they're going to have the (differing) amounts minerals added in for taste. Distilled water however is 100% pure because it's not normally sold as drinking water (it tastes like crap)...but to serve other purposes around the house.

So, if you start with distilled, you're starting with 100% pure water (like I've been suggesting), and it gives you the opportunity to mix in the additive and create the ideal GH and kH for the CPD's.

Just a note on pH of distilled water. Technically, since it is pure water...it is completely neutral and will have a pH of 7. However, the second it starts mixing with air and co2 gets involved...the pH will plummet to around 5. That's why the additive is so important since the distilled water will have no buffering ability whatsoever...and its also lacking any of the minerals / electrolytes that are absolutely vital to support fish and .

To sum it up...unless you purchase a RO unit...distilled is absolutely, 100% exactly what we've been looking for. If you do another major water change before stocking (which I'd recommend)...do it with distilled and the (necessary) additive. That way we can get you started on the right foot...and if you end up switching to an RO the fish will never know the difference. In fact...distilled could also be your long term, permanent solution if you can find it at a good price in convenient sizes. If nothing else, it's worth the pain in the butt (and the back) to stock up on it now, prepare it (with the powder), switch out the water, add fish and decide what water source you'll use in the future.

I know Walmart and Target sell it for (relatively) dirt cheap under some generic brand.

So unless a new RO system is in the near future...distilled water + additives = perfect, ideal, pristine wonderful water for your new fish

Funny...I just sent you a PM before I saw this post and said the exact same thing. The only question I had was whether I should wait a few days before adding fish to make sure the PH stays stable after mixing the additive, or is that not necessary? The CPDs will come mid-week, so if I mix the stuff on Saturday and let it hang around for a few days I can test the PH daily and then do another pwc to get nitrates down the night before. BUT I was also thinking.....the LFS I emailed said they do sell the RO power and they have a good number of FW fish. I was thinking IF they do have cories and they are decent looking I could come home saturday, do the pwc, mix the water, and add the Corys on Sunday. Not sure of course, it depends on some factors (whether they have them and whether they are healthy for two), but just another plan kicking around in my head. I could also just wait the few days to be safe, get the CPDs mid-week and then add Corys the next weekend. (I need to rest my brain lol).

Thanks for the research, btw, you're awesome!

 

[barterking85]

We are all astounded by the awesomeness that is ECO lol

 

[eco23]

Funny...I just sent you a PM before I saw this post and said the exact same thing. The only question I had was whether I should wait a few days before adding fish to make sure the PH stays stable after mixing the additive, or is that not necessary? The CPDs will come mid-week, so if I mix the stuff on Saturday and let it hang around for a few days I can test the PH daily and then do another pwc to get nitrates down the night before. BUT I was also thinking.....the LFS I emailed said they do sell the RO power and they have a good number of FW fish. I was thinking IF they do have cories and they are decent looking I could come home saturday, do the pwc, mix the water, and add the Corys on Sunday. Not sure of course, it depends on some factors (whether they have them and whether they are healthy for two), but just another plan kicking around in my head. I could also just wait the few days to be safe, get the CPDs mid-week and then add Corys the next weekend. (I need to rest my brain lol).

Thanks for the research, btw, you're awesome!

Thats where it gets a bit tricky...

From what I understand, distilled water is ridiculously low in oxygen until there is some gas exchange. It's recommended it's aerated for a couple hours or left out overnight so the o2 exchange happens. After that time you'll basically see the true nature of what the water will be like in the tank (which will be 0 GH, 0 kH and a very low pH). However, the distilled water you buy off the shelf may have already been exposed to those things and might be sitting aerated off the shelf. I guess we'll see when you test it.

What I'd do....fill up a bucket with the amount of water you'll put in when you do normal water changes. Stick an air stone in it for a few hours and see what it looks like. After that time do your experimenting with adjusting GH and kH so it's ideal for the CPD's (I'm sure that guy you're buying them from can tell you exactly what ideal levels would be for them). That way you'll know the formula for X amount of additives into a bucket of water = ideal. From then on it's must a matter of adding the powder into each bucket. When you switch out the water before adding fish it might be a little crazy...but from then on it should be a piece of cake.

RO water doesn't have this oxygen issue (as far as I know) because of the differences of how it's produced compared to distilled. Just another benefit of having a RO unit...including not having to carry anything up stairs . I wouldn't get a RO unit from the lfs unless they've got a fantastic deal, or you've got money to burn. With stuff like that you'll almost always get a much better deal online. The LFS's near me sell my filter for $240...I got it online for $129 with free shipping. They definitely jack up the price.

 

[eco23]

We are all astounded by the awesomeness that is ECO lol

Thanks man. I'm not that awesome...I just make it sound pretty, haha!

 

[librarygirl]

Thats where it gets a bit tricky...

From what I understand, distilled water is ridiculously low in oxygen until there is some gas exchange. It's recommended it's aerated for a couple hours or left out overnight so the o2 exchange happens. After that time you'll basically see the true nature of what the water will be like in the tank (which will be 0 GH, 0 kH and a very low pH). However, the distilled water you buy off the shelf may have already been exposed to those things and might be sitting aerated off the shelf. I guess we'll see when you test it.

What I'd do....fill up a bucket with the amount of water you'll put in when you do normal water changes. Stick an air stone in it for a few hours and see what it looks like. After that time do your experimenting with adjusting GH and kH so it's ideal for the CPD's (I'm sure that guy you're buying them from can tell you exactly what ideal levels would be for them). That way you'll know the formula for X amount of additives into a bucket of water = ideal. From then on it's must a matter of adding the powder into each bucket. When you switch out the water before adding fish it might be a little crazy...but from then on it should be a piece of cake.

RO water doesn't have this oxygen issue (as far as I know) because of the differences of how it's produced compared to distilled. Just another benefit of having a RO unit...including not having to carry anything up stairs . I wouldn't get a RO unit from the lfs unless they've got a fantastic deal, or you've got money to burn. With stuff like that you'll almost always get a much better deal online. The LFS's near me sell my filter for $240...I got it online for $129 with free shipping. They definitely jack up the price.

Great thanks! I won't rush it then. We'll see what I can find on Saturday and then I'll post results here; hopefully I should have some distilled water to start with and the RO powder. First thing in the morning I'm going to email the guy and order my FISH!!!

 

[JimmyA]

Just checking up on you LG!

 

[librarygirl]

Small update

So with Eco's guidance I'm going to use distilled water supplemented with RO Rite until I can get an RO Unit. I bought 17 one gallon jugs of distilled water (16 of which are still in the trunk of my car lol). I also bought a jar of RO Rite powder.

I also searched for food-grade plastic tub to mix the water in, but for some reason couldn't find one (got lost in Home Depot and didn't see large buckets, although I didn't ask either lol). I bought this one but b/c it's recycled I'm not sure if it's safe to use (nothing about whether or not it's food grade either). I have two 2.5 gal aquarium buckets I got at Petsmart but aerating and mixing water in those is going to be a pain.

I tested the distilled water out of the jug and the PH is 6. I dumped it into a bucket with an air stone where it's been for about 2 hours now. I just tested PH and it's up to 6.4, which adds another level of trickery to this whole process.

My tank water is also a washed-out tea color, probably from the DW I put in there which, at the time of purchase, I thought was a DW replica so I put it into the tank without soaking it (I kinda thought it was very life-like for fake wood ) and now the water is changing color. So I'll have to run it through the dish washer a few times or try boiling it (although I don't have a pot large enough I don't think).

I guess tomorrow I'll have to start aerating and mixing water to test the RO powder. I'll need to drain the tank and refill with distilled RO Rite water so that the whole tank is switched over without any spring water in it so I can monitor PH/GH/KH over the next few days and hope it stays stable.

Oh, and I ordered a batch of Celestial Pearl Danio from a breeder today. They are coming on Thursday. Lots to do before then.....

Um, help?

 

[eco23]

Um, help?

Help has just been sent via PM (please don't make me type it out here as well, lol )

 

[librarygirl]

It's been a long day...

To make a very long story short:

I drained the tank and refilled with distilled RO water supplemented with RO Rite. I aerated and heated the water for a few hours, then added the RO Rite powder and brought it to a PH of 6.8-7 (with a starting PH of 6.4). I drained the tank and refilled.

I did some rescaping also (I'll never like what I do, so I should just give up lo).

I'm letting it circulate before I test PH/GH/KH and nitrate. Then I'll redose ammonia. I'll monitor levels over the next few days. On Wednesday I have to do another pwc to get nitrate down (hopefully it won't be too large), turn the heat down, and my fish come on Thursday.

I really hope I'm doing all of this right and I don't kill the poor things.