Help and advice please!

[Caliban07]

They do indeed both exist. The link you shared accounts for one of the COMAMMOX studies and they indicate that COM.nitrospira seem to prefer acidic mediums. These are recently discovered strains and discounts Ammonia Oxidising Archaea (AOA)The information that spawned the whole idea that low pH stalls nitrification was centred around ammonia oxidising bacteria (AOB) I remember the article but can’t seem to find it but it was from one of the earlier Fritz products. I’ve no doubt that pH has implications with the specific strains as discussed in that article but it isn’t inaccurate to then say that pH will stall nitrification.

What I take home from all the studies discussed in the link I provided is that new information is emerging on nitrifying organisms all the time. Yesterday we were talking about nitrosomanas and nitrobacter then we discovered Archaea and now COMAMMOX nitrospira. Who knows what will come tomorrow.

The other things of note is that all
These microbes will grow in certain niches under certain environments and as the environment changes then so too will the organisms which includes the nitrifiers.

l don’t see any information that suggests nitrification stops at low pH levels. If the starting point is X and becomes Y, X organism will be replaced by Y. The aquarium filter therefore is diverse and ever changing so my thoughts are that we should be thinking a bit more carefully before we make a statement such as pH stalling nitrification. We are in danger of regurgitating outdated information. Is it possible? It seems that way depending on the microbes we are talking about but its it really likely? I just don’t think it is given that the recent strains discovered operate under low oxygen conditions and have the ability to use co2 as an energy source.

Acidity, low oxygen, ammonium and co2 are all traits of a low pH environment and it is within these environments where these recently discovered nitrifiers are being studied.

 

[rlederer]

Hello everyone,

I hope this message finds you well.

I need some little advice in regards my tank parameters.

I have a 125L tank with 5x juvenile Discus, 2x Angelfish and 3x Corys.

I had the tank for over a year with only 2x Angelfish and 3x Corys and 2 weeks ago I decided to purchase 5x Juvenile Discus.
Obviously this made the biological load to increase and my ammonia also increased. It fluctuates from 0.25ppm to 0.50ppm ammonia as I do 2x 25% water changes a day 1h after each meal (For the quick healthy and grow of my discus). My nitrites and nitrates are always 0ppm both. I use seachem Prime (To detoxify ammonia) and stability each water change.
I use a 307 Fluval external filter with 2x trays of Seachem matrix. Also 2 days ago a decided to add 2x Ziss ZB-200F & ZB-150F Bubble Moving Media Filter into the tank to increase the biological space.
I have also plants in my tank.

Do you know if I continue doing 2x 25% water changes daily it will managed to grow enough beneficial bacteria in the tank? I would like to have a 0ppm reading in ammonia soon.

Thank you all for your time and help.

PS: I am sorry if I have spelled any words wrong, English is not my first language.

The biggest problem here, which is only going to get worse, is the size of the tank. You need at least a 250 L tank with the fish you have.

 

[Andy Sager]

They do indeed both exist. The link you shared accounts for one of the COMAMMOX studies and they indicate that COM.nitrospira seem to prefer acidic mediums. These are recently discovered strains and discounts Ammonia Oxidising Archaea (AOA)The information that spawned the whole idea that low pH stalls nitrification was centred around ammonia oxidising bacteria (AOB) I remember the article but can’t seem to find it but it was from one of the earlier Fritz products. I’ve no doubt that pH has implications with the specific strains as discussed in that article but it isn’t inaccurate to then say that pH will stall nitrification.

What I take home from all the studies discussed in the link I provided is that new information is emerging on nitrifying organisms all the time. Yesterday we were talking about nitrosomanas and nitrobacter then we discovered Archaea and now COMAMMOX nitrospira. Who knows what will come tomorrow.

The other things of note is that all
These microbes will grow in certain niches under certain environments and as the environment changes then so too will the organisms which includes the nitrifiers.

l don’t see any information that suggests nitrification stops at low pH levels. If the starting point is X and becomes Y, X organism will be replaced by Y. The aquarium filter therefore is diverse and ever changing so my thoughts are that we should be thinking a bit more carefully before we make a statement such as pH stalling nitrification. We are in danger of regurgitating outdated information. Is it possible? It seems that way depending on the microbes we are talking about but its it really likely? I just don’t think it is given that the recent strains discovered operate under low oxygen conditions and have the ability to use co2 as an energy source.

Acidity, low oxygen, ammonium and co2 are all traits of a low pH environment and it is within these environments where these recently discovered nitrifiers are being studied.

What I got out of the article is that while Clade A prefers an acidic Ph, Clade B were present but in smaller numbers which says to me that they would not be functioning at 100% which would mean delayed or possibly suppressed nitrification. That said, it's obvious that new things are being found all the time so one needs to be cautious about the old theories however, avoiding the parameters of the old theories is not going to do damage but rather possibly being over-cautious. I would not deliberately make conditions that are questionable under either the new or old information.

 

[Colin_T]

Considering the speed that bacteria can grow at, there's a good possibility they can evolve to suit the pH of their tank. They might not grow as fast in acidic water, but after a few months, they might have evolved to live and reproduce quite normally in acidic water.

 

[Caliban07]

What I got out of the article is that while Clade A prefers an acidic Ph, Clade B were present but in smaller numbers which says to me that they would not be functioning at 100% which would mean delayed or possibly suppressed nitrification.

If that is correct then it is good news because that to me would mean that the number of B would diminish and increase the number of A, effectively keeping things functioning no matter what direction our water parameters take. This subtle changes in microbial assemblage will transition at the same rate the water slowly ages.

It actually makes me even more wary of sudden parameter changes but as Colin says, there should always be something their ready to take the mantle should conditions change abruptly. Obviously it depends how abrupt the changes are especially when talking about ammonia spikes etc.

It also really does just make fishless cycling a pointless exercise though. You’re better off just adding fish slowly and sensibly in my opinion.

 

[Andy Sager]

If that is correct then it is good news because that to me would mean that the number of B would diminish and increase the number of A, effectively keeping things functioning no matter what direction our water parameters take. This subtle changes in microbial assemblage will transition at the same rate the water slowly ages.

It actually makes me even more wary of sudden parameter changes but as Colin says, there should always be something their ready to take the mantle should conditions change abruptly. Obviously it depends how abrupt the changes are especially when talking about ammonia spikes etc.

It also really does just make fishless cycling a pointless exercise though. You’re better off just adding fish slowly and sensibly in my opinion.

Then I'll toss this into the mix because I don't recall if this was in any of the articles you or I posted: What if different fish species produced the different Clades? Fish species from soft acidic water might produce clade A while fish from hard alkaline or neutral Ph water produced clade B.
Boggles the mind.

 

[Andy Sager]

Considering the speed that bacteria can grow at, there's a good possibility they can evolve to suit the pH of their tank. They might not grow as fast in acidic water, but after a few months, they might have evolved to live and reproduce quite normally in acidic water.

This was a question I wondered only because the studies were mainly done with wastewater treatment plants or soil samples but what about actual fish tanks of various species only tanks.
As for them adjusting, there was no discussion of evolving into a preference but of the presence level of one over the other based on Ph level.

( This is why fish keeping is really a step towards a science degree. )

 

[Caliban07]

Then I'll toss this into the mix because I don't recall if this was in any of the articles you or I posted: What if different fish species produced the different Clades? Fish species from soft acidic water might produce clade A while fish from hard alkaline or neutral Ph water produced clade B.
Boggles the mind.

Yes, the microbial communities were said to be dependent also on livestock. Maybe not that the fish produce them, but their byproducts I would imagine. The microbial communities may also differ depending on the foods we feed etc. there really is just no end to the possibilities.

 

[Caliban07]

This was a question I wondered only because the studies were mainly done with wastewater treatment plants or soil samples but what about actual fish tanks of various species only tanks.

As for them adjusting, there was no discussion of evolving into a preference but of the presence level of one over the other based on Ph level. [emoji782]



( This is why fish keeping is really a step towards a science degree. [emoji6] )

There was a couple of studies that were around aquarium filters and only one of them out of around 50 had AOB detected. They all varied wildly in terms if maintenance and only one of them used RO water. All
Of them had AOA and COMAMMOX nitrospira as the abundant nitrifiers

Read post #7 here

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/does-depleted-kh-stop-the-nitrogen-cycle.71239/

And just look how low the ammonia levels are in these typical aquariums

An average of 59ug/L NH3-N which equates to even less when expressed as just NH3 49ug/L NH3 if my maths is correct.

So why we advocate 4mgl NH3 for a fishless cycle is beyond me. We are cultivating a cycle based on the microbes that are unlikely to be there when you stop.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks.

 

[Andy Sager]

I re-read post #7 and the descriptions of the fish are more general than specific. I was posing that possibly the excrement of specific types of fish determine which clade are produced. Just makes me go Hmmm ( we need a thinking emoji. lol )

My apologies to the OP for hijacking your thread a bit.

 

[Caliban07]

I re-read post #7 and the descriptions of the fish are more general than specific. I was posing that possibly the excrement of specific types of fish determine which clade are produced. Just makes me go Hmmm ( we need a thinking emoji. lol )



My apologies to the OP for hijacking your thread a bit.

They may well do depending on diet but most people (despite species) tend to feed foods with mostly similar ingredients. Like we said, the possibilities are endless [emoji846]

 

[Andy Sager]

They may well do depending on diet but most people (despite species) tend to feed foods with mostly similar ingredients. Like we said, the possibilities are endless [emoji846]