HELP........I Think!

[jwh0818]

If you would like further help read up on these first.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154837

They are complete from what I have read and won't steer you wrong

 

[Caliban07]

Now I being told (different forum) that due to the bioload, I should buy/put the Betta into the tank after adding the TSS. Sound right? Because of this "bioload" thing, it's NOT recommended to put the minnows in, later (once tank is cycled) take them out and put the Betta in. The "bioload" would be use to the Betta and the TSS would protect the Betta from anything harmful in the tank.

Does this sound right?

Was going to use minnows until I read this person's reply to us. But, want to make sure what she wrote is correct.

Classic rocker. If you put 2 minnows in your 5 gallon. Which are really tiny. The bacteria on your sponge will grow to cope with the bioload of the minnows.

One betta has a heavier bioload than 2 little minnows. Therefore if your cycle the tank with 2 minnows then put the betta in the bacteria will then have to adjust to the heavier bioload by reproducing to create a larger colony to tackle the bettas bioload. In the mean time you will get ammonia readings while the betta is in the tank regardless of whether the tank was cycled because it was cycled with the minnows not the betta. You will get ammonia readings until the bacteria catch up with the new heavier bioload.

You have 4 options

1) do a fish less cycle. This way it doesn't matter about ammonia and the fish will be 100% safe.

2) cycle the tank with the minnows return them and add the betta. I don't think it's fair to return fish that have been used for cycling. You should have the cycling fish In your end stocking plan but this is just opinion.

3) cycle with a betta. See the article on the home page of this site called fish in cycle the dark side.

4) if you know anyone who already has a tank. Ask them for some of their fiter media and place it in yours. This will speed up the process.

Stick with one forum. You get to know the people better and will soon figure out for yourself who is giving duff information or bad advice

 

[jwh0818]

Classic rocker. If you put 2 minnows in your 5 gallon. Which are really tiny. The bacteria on your sponge will grow to cope with the bioload of the minnows.

One betta has a heavier bioload than 2 little minnows. Therefore if your cycle the tank with 2 minnows then put the betta in the bacteria will then have to adjust to the heavier bioload by reproducing to create a larger colony to tackle the bettas bioload. In the mean time you will get ammonia readings while the betta is in the tank regardless of whether the tank was cycled because it was cycled with the minnows not the betta. You will get ammonia readings until the bacteria catch up with the new heavier bioload.

You have 4 options

1) do a fish less cycle. This way it doesn't matter about ammonia and the fish will be 100% safe.

2) cycle the tank with the minnows return them and add the betta. I don't think it's fair to return fish that have been used for cycling. You should have the cycling fish In your end stocking plan but this is just opinion.

3) cycle with a betta. See the article on the home page of this site called fish in cycle the dark side.

4) if you know anyone who already has a tank. Ask them for some of their fiter media and place it in yours. This will speed up the process.

Stick with one forum. You get to know the people better and will soon figure out for yourself who is giving duff information or bad advice

I hope you know he is talking about rosy red minnows. They have a pretty big bioload. 2 equals way more than a single betta that eats 2 pellets a day

 

[Caliban07]

I hope you know he is talking about rosy red minnows. They have a pretty big bioload. 2 equals way more than a single betta that eats 2 pellets a day

Obviously not. Even more reason to use the betta.

 

[Fishperson]

There is lots of conflicting advice on here, and I'd like to clear some of it up:
1. Doing a fish-in cycle properly doesn't harm the fish.
2. Doing a fish-in cycle properly (by my definition, which is not harming the fish at all) is virtually impossible.
3. Bettas are delicate, but not too delicate to be every used in a proper fish in cycle.
4. The API strips are generally not very accurate at all. Certainly not accurate enough to use when cycling.
5. The bacteria are not dead after a few day's without food. Not in the slightest. They can live for months without food.

My advice:
- Use the betta if you want, but make sure to be VERY diligent about water parameters.
- Get an API Master Test Kit. They are cheap on Ebay or Amazon.
- Look into a fishless cycle. It's much less work, and generally faster.
- If you don't want to chance it with the betta (I wouldn't), and don't want to go fishless, then go ahead and go with zebra danios instead of rosy reds. Rosy reds are very prone to disease because they are feeder fish and kept in bad conditions. Zebras are just as hardy but are far less prone to disease.
- It sort of sounded like you planned on stocking this tank with Rosy Reds eventually, that is a big no-no. But I don't think you were planning on it.

 

[Caliban07]

There is lots of conflicting advice on here, and I'd like to clear some of it up:

1. Doing a fish-in cycle properly doesn't harm the fish.

2. Doing a fish-in cycle properly (by my definition, which is not harming the fish at all) is virtually impossible.

3. Bettas are delicate, but not too delicate to be every used in a proper fish in cycle.

4. The API strips are generally not very accurate at all. Certainly not accurate enough to use when cycling.

5. The bacteria are not dead after a few day's without food. Not in the slightest. They can live for months without food.



My advice:

- Use the betta if you want, but make sure to be VERY diligent about water parameters.

- Get an API Master Test Kit. They are cheap on Ebay or Amazon.

- Look into a fishless cycle. It's much less work, and generally faster.

- If you don't want to chance it with the betta (I wouldn't), and don't want to go fishless, then go ahead and go with zebra danios instead of rosy reds. Rosy reds are very prone to disease because they are feeder fish and kept in bad conditions. Zebras are just as hardy but are far less prone to disease.

- It sort of sounded like you planned on stocking this tank with Rosy Reds eventually, that is a big no-no. But I don't think you were planning on it.

I would agree with points 1-5

It was threnjen and myselfs who's research clarified that bacteria live for months with out food.

Bettas are sensitive because of the way they are handled then placed in a tiny container at chain stores and fed on a poor diet of 2 pellets a day. At the very least they usually come with fin rot.

The moment they are placed in a larger contains with space and decor to stimulate their minds and fed a healthy and varied diet in clean water that is changed regularly they soon heal up.

I cycled my 5 gallon with a betta ripley. It was a beautiful example and was absolutely fine.

 

[Delapool]

Can I ask the OP what nitrate is now? Last I saw was 80 to 160 - not sure if that was with strips?

 

[ClassicRocker]

Looks like it will be a 100% water change, wait 24 hours, get the SafeStart and Betta. Put the SafeStart in and wait a few minutes and then add the Betta. Will let the Betta float on top for awhile to get use to the tank temp.

Then, don't touch the tank for 2 weeks except to do water perimeter checks and feed. Another thing that was recommended by a member of another forum. Do you agree with his recommendation?

 

[ClassicRocker]

Nitrate this morning and tonight: Between 80 and 160 (API Strips)
and the other perimeters are reading the same from this morning as well. Looks like the tank is in limbo.........doing nothing!
BE SURE TO READ THE REPLY ABOVE THIS ONE THAT I DONE!!

Can I ask the OP what nitrate is now? Last I saw was 80 to 160 - not sure if that was with strips?

 

[Caliban07]

Looks like it will be a 100% water change, wait 24 hours, get the SafeStart and Betta. Put the SafeStart in and wait a few minutes and then add the Betta. Will let the Betta float on top for awhile to get use to the tank temp.

Then, don't touch the tank for 2 weeks except to do water perimeter checks and feed. Another thing that was recommended by a member of another forum. Do you agree with his recommendation?

Check parameters first using a LIQUID test kit. Bring all parameters to 0 by doing water changes. Float the betta for half and hour. After half and hour tear a whole in the bag and start to drip your tank water in the bag using a pipette. Do this for another half an hour. Pour the bet into a net then immediately put it in your tank as not to contaminate your water with water from the bag. Add tetra safe start if you like but it will probably do nothing.

Test water EVERY day make sure ammonia stays below 0.25ppm on the LIQUID test kit. Change 30% water every week regardless.

Feed VERY LIGHTLY ONCE a day and skip a day feeding every few days until cycle is complete.

 

[Fibsog]

Sorry, but that is what these minnows are basically used for.......cycling and feeding to ducks and turtles. Some do keep them as fish pets, but not us. The Rosy Red's are a much "hardy" fish than a Betta is. MUST agree with the reply saying "stick with the Rosy Reds", but then again, also read that Zebra Danio's are great for cycling as well.

Rosy reds and toughies are the feeders around me and i have kept them before. Great fish!

 

[venymae]

A lesson on bacteria in the Aquarium

There is lots of conflicting advice on here, and I'd like to clear some of it up:
...
5. The bacteria are not dead after a few day's without food. Not in the slightest. They can live for months without food.

Wrong.
The bacteria responsible for converting ammonia to nitrite in freshwater are from the genus Nitrosomonas, in saltwater Nitrosococcus are responsible. These bacteria are rod-shaped chemolithoautothrophs with an aerobic metabolism. While they do not grow by photosynthesis, their unusual metabolic behavior involves burning ammonia with oxygen. Long, thin membranes inside the bacteria's cell use electrons from ammonia's nitrogen atom to produce energy. In order to complete cell division, they must consume vast amounts of ammonia, making the division process last for several days. The cells grow either in pairs or short chains .None of the Nitrobacteraceaeare able to form spores. They have a complex cytomembrane (cell wall) that is surrounded by a slime matrix. All species have limited tolerance ranges and are individually sensitive to pH, dissolved oxygen levels, salt, temperature, and inhibitory chemicals. Unlike species of heterotrophic bacteria, they cannot survive any drying process without killing the organism. In water, they can survive short periods of adverse conditions by utilizing stored materials within the cell. When these materials are depleted, the bacteria die. Nitrosomonas (ammonia-oxidizers) bacteria are harder to kill than Nitrobacter (nitrite-oxidizers) bacteria. If the Nitrobacter bacteria are killed off, the Nitrosomonas bacteria will continue working on the ammonia and you will have a jammed cycle.

I happen to know my stuff in this area. A lot of them will die. I'm not a microbiologist, but I almost was.

 

[ClassicRocker]

Will NOT let the tank set empty for 24 hours! My opinion, and some others........some folks get TOO paranoid over minnows that have been in an aquarium before. These minnows in the store are being bought/fed to ducks and turtles and I haven't heard of an outbreak of ducks and turtles getting sick or dying from minnows!
I will clean the tank inside the best way possible, but not going to start all over with a completely empty tank.

Anyway, will empty tank tomorrow, fill it (as recommended), add Prime and then wait 24 hours for the Prime to do it's thing. I think some folks in these fish forums are pretty paranoid about minnow diseases, etc....that is why the "empty for 24 hours" was recommended.

A question: How much Prime to put into a 5 gallon aquarium after filling it up (5 gallons). Had to look up online and found out that it's 2 drops per gallon from an eye dropper. Is that right? If it is, that would be 10 drops with the eye dropper.

?

I'm also having a difficult time trying to figure out which to buy......Tetra SafeStart or API QuickStart.

 

[Brookster123]

Silly thread here... Op, stop wasting money on bottled crud, uselessss, refer back to the great info provided by the knowledgable people in this forumn.. The only short cut in cycling is using other people bugs.. Get some seeded material from your Lfs???

 

[ClassicRocker]

None of the pet stores here will give it away or sell it...............already called!

Silly thread here... Op, stop wasting money on bottled crud, uselessss, refer back to the great info provided by the knowledgable people in this forumn.. The only short cut in cycling is using other people bugs.. Get some seeded material from your Lfs???

 

[Brookster123]

None of the pet stores here will give it away or sell it...............already called!

well that's rather unhelpful.. Any friends with tanks? Neighbors? Can you post locally?

 

[Caliban07]

Wrong.
The bacteria responsible for converting ammonia to nitrite in freshwater are from the genus Nitrosomonas, in saltwater Nitrosococcus are responsible. These bacteria are rod-shaped chemolithoautothrophs with an aerobic metabolism. While they do not grow by photosynthesis, their unusual metabolic behavior involves burning ammonia with oxygen. Long, thin membranes inside the bacteria's cell use electrons from ammonia's nitrogen atom to produce energy. In order to complete cell division, they must consume vast amounts of ammonia, making the division process last for several days. The cells grow either in pairs or short chains .None of the Nitrobacteraceaeare able to form spores. They have a complex cytomembrane (cell wall) that is surrounded by a slime matrix. All species have limited tolerance ranges and are individually sensitive to pH, dissolved oxygen levels, salt, temperature, and inhibitory chemicals. Unlike species of heterotrophic bacteria, they cannot survive any drying process without killing the organism. In water, they can survive short periods of adverse conditions by utilizing stored materials within the cell. When these materials are depleted, the bacteria die. Nitrosomonas (ammonia-oxidizers) bacteria are harder to kill than Nitrobacter (nitrite-oxidizers) bacteria. If the Nitrobacter bacteria are killed off, the Nitrosomonas bacteria will continue working on the ammonia and you will have a jammed cycle.

I happen to know my stuff in this area. A lot of them will die. I'm not a microbiologist, but I almost was.

Looks very copy and paste to me this lol. It is mainly nitrospira in our aquariums anyway not nitrobacter.

 

[Caliban07]

Anyways I've got to remove myself from this thread now.

 

[Mebbid]

Thank you. Bettas can be delicate and I would never use one for a cycle. If I do a fish In cycle I use feeders

Since when? Bettas are renowned for being tough as nails. This is how they survive conditions of 8+ ppm ammonia in those awful cups.

Wrong.
The bacteria responsible for converting ammonia to nitrite in freshwater are from the genus Nitrosomonas, in saltwater Nitrosococcus are responsible. These bacteria are rod-shaped chemolithoautothrophs with an aerobic metabolism. While they do not grow by photosynthesis, their unusual metabolic behavior involves burning ammonia with oxygen. Long, thin membranes inside the bacteria's cell use electrons from ammonia's nitrogen atom to produce energy. In order to complete cell division, they must consume vast amounts of ammonia, making the division process last for several days. The cells grow either in pairs or short chains .None of the Nitrobacteraceaeare able to form spores. They have a complex cytomembrane (cell wall) that is surrounded by a slime matrix. All species have limited tolerance ranges and are individually sensitive to pH, dissolved oxygen levels, salt, temperature, and inhibitory chemicals. Unlike species of heterotrophic bacteria, they cannot survive any drying process without killing the organism. In water, they can survive short periods of adverse conditions by utilizing stored materials within the cell. When these materials are depleted, the bacteria die. Nitrosomonas (ammonia-oxidizers) bacteria are harder to kill than Nitrobacter (nitrite-oxidizers) bacteria. If the Nitrobacter bacteria are killed off, the Nitrosomonas bacteria will continue working on the ammonia and you will have a jammed cycle.

I happen to know my stuff in this area. A lot of them will die. I'm not a microbiologist, but I almost was.

Do you have a source? I've seen the info collected by caliban on the topic and there was a credible source speaking of the dormancy period of nitrifying bacteria in the aquarium.

Will NOT let the tank set empty for 24 hours! My opinion, and some others........some folks get TOO paranoid over minnows that have been in an aquarium before. These minnows in the store are being bought/fed to ducks and turtles and I haven't heard of an outbreak of ducks and turtles getting sick or dying from minnows!
I will clean the tank inside the best way possible, but not going to start all over with a completely empty tank.

Anyway, will empty tank tomorrow, fill it (as recommended), add Prime and then wait 24 hours for the Prime to do it's thing. I think some folks in these fish forums are pretty paranoid about minnow diseases, etc....that is why the "empty for 24 hours" was recommended.

A question: How much Prime to put into a 5 gallon aquarium after filling it up (5 gallons). Had to look up online and found out that it's 2 drops per gallon from an eye dropper. Is that right? If it is, that would be 10 drops with the eye dropper. ?

I'm also having a difficult time trying to figure out which to buy......Tetra SafeStart or API QuickStart.

Just do 1ml of prime. It's not harmful to overdose it within reason.

Stop going to multiple forums for the same issue please. It does nothing but create frustration when all parties aren't in on a conversation.

Skip the bottled bacteria, you don't need it.

The diseases from the rosy reds you used for cycling are hugely prevalent in feeder species. They aren't bred for health but rather numbers. You can almost guarantee internal parasites, external parasites, and a number of other health issuues coming from them.

 

[Caliban07]

Since when? Bettas are renowned for being tough as nails. This is how they survive conditions of 8+ ppm ammonia in those awful cups.



Do you have a source? I've seen the info collected by caliban on the topic and there was a credible source speaking of the dormancy period of nitrifying bacteria in the aquarium.



Just do 1ml of prime. It's not harmful to overdose it within reason.

Stop going to multiple forums for the same issue please. It does nothing but create frustration when all parties aren't in on a conversation.

Skip the bottled bacteria, you don't need it.

The diseases from the rosy reds you used for cycling are hugely prevalent in feeder species. They aren't bred for health but rather numbers. You can almost guarantee internal parasites, external parasites, and a number of other health issuues coming from them.

About time a respected member chimed in. Fighting a losing battle here.

Thanks mebbid. Would like to add that it was the work of a couple of people that collected data. Threnjen was involved.

Would make a good experiment though.even though it's been done once. No harm in trying again.