Help with ph!

[Delapool]

Just in case useful I've copied in notes I have on baking soda. Also I should note I'm not against using comercial buffers - I have some liquid calcium carbonate I use sometimes over summer. As long as the product says what is in it and what it will do, I'm happy.

"About ½ a teaspoon will raise the KH by about 2 degrees in 100L of water,so scale this to your tank and off you go. If this method is too temporary theother way is to use a bag of crushed coral in the filter, start with a littleand work your way up, having too much may also raise the pH so take it slow."

I found adding something like a teaspoon to 150gal was enough shift KH around a degree which was all I wanted.

 

[uncgirl1]

Just in case useful I've copied in notes I have on baking soda. Also I should note I'm not against using comercial buffers - I have some liquid calcium carbonate I use sometimes over summer. As long as the product says what is in it and what it will do, I'm happy.

"About ½ a teaspoon will raise the KH by about 2 degrees in 100L of water,so scale this to your tank and off you go. If this method is too temporary theother way is to use a bag of crushed coral in the filter, start with a littleand work your way up, having too much may also raise the pH so take it slow."

I found adding something like a teaspoon to 150gal was enough shift KH around a degree which was all I wanted.

Thank you so much! Very helpful information.

I changed enough of my water tonight to get the ph up to somewhere between 6.5 and 7. I added the crushed coral in a media bag to one of my hob filters. The Aquaclear 70. So far, the fish seem ok. I've been staring at them for 2.5 hours trying to make sure they are ok. lol I am hoping that the coral will be enough to prevent the huge ph drops I was getting. Although I think I may be expecting to much in that respect.

I ordered the Seachem Alkaline buffer and Seachem Equilibrium today in case I have to do something more than coral. I went with Equilibrium over Replenish because it's not recommended for a planted tank. I also purchased the Seachem ammonia alert and ph alert and put those in my tank as well. So far, ph is holding but it's only been 2.5 hours. It's about 10:30 here so I'm just going to hope I wake up to alive fish and a decent ph. It's crazy how much one can worry about something like this. If this does work, I know I'll need to test for ammonia, etc as I'm sure my bb was damaged if not entirely killed off.


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[Caliban07]

Personally I would be more focused on finding the cause of the alkalinity depletion. If you think it may be heterotrophic bacteria then why? The tank was stable at one time. If it is a vicious circle of heterotrophic bloom and resultant kh depletion you may be better off restarting the tank.

Chemical buffers are not normally advised on this forum so if you do go down the route of adding buffers to attain a certain ph just be careful.

I hope you get things fixed.


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[uncgirl1]

When I did the water change last night to raise the kh and ph, input a small amount of tank water in a cup to sit overnight. I let the tank circulate for about 30-45 minutes before my ph test last night and before removing the small cup of water.

This morning I tested again and the tank ph is 6.5 so it dropped some but not very much. This is very different from before when it would be back down in the 5 range overnight so I'm very excited. Not counting a victory yet but at least progress. I also tested the tank water I set out overnight as a comparison and it tested 6.5 ph as well. I think that is good that they fell in ph the same amount, right? I also tested the kh this morning in the tank and it was 2 kh. Gh was 3. Not so good.

I'm happy that it seems like some progress happened in maintaining a decent ph overnight but still have work to do I think. I'll be interested to see where things stand when I get home from work this evening. With such a low kh, I'm still worried!


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[uncgirl1]

Personally I would be more focused on finding the cause of the alkalinity depletion. If you think it may be heterotrophic bacteria then why? The tank was stable at one time. If it is a vicious circle of heterotrophic bloom and resultant kh depletion you may be better off restarting the tank.

Chemical buffers are not normally advised on this forum so if you do go down the route of adding buffers to attain a certain ph just be careful.

I hope you get things fixed.


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Thank you. I am concerned about the why and am trying to figure it out. I'm keeping the tank clean and doing water changes daily. The water is not cloudy at all anymore. I'm checking the filters to make sure no sludge is in them and it's not. In fact, the white filter media isn't even very dirty. I'm researching this heterotrophic bacteria and am doing all of the suggested things to limit it as best I can. I do want to find the root of it. However, my tap water even has a low kh and gh. That's got to play some role in the stability. As far as the tank being stable, it's only been back running for 3 weeks with fish. Before that, a fishless cycle. Trust me, I don't want to use chemicals if I don't absolutely have to! I just want to do the right thing and make sure my fish are ok. I went with the crushed coral because it's natural. That's the only thing I've added to the tank at this point other than the normal Prime for water changes. Crushed coral is even used as a substrate so I didn't think it could be bad.

Anyway, I appreciate your advice and agree with you. I am continuing to try to figure out the answers. I really don't want to restart the tank for obvious reasons. But if nothing else works then I may have to.


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[Caliban07]

Thank you. I am concerned about the why and am trying to figure it out. I'm keeping the tank clean and doing water changes daily. The water is not cloudy at all anymore. I'm checking the filters to make sure no sludge is in them and it's not. In fact, the white filter media isn't even very dirty. I'm researching this heterotrophic bacteria and am doing all of the suggested things to limit it as best I can. I do want to find the root of it. However, my tap water even has a low kh and gh. That's got to play some role in the stability. As far as the tank being stable, it's only been back running for 3 weeks with fish. Before that, a fishless cycle. Trust me, I don't want to use chemicals if I don't absolutely have to! I just want to do the right thing and make sure my fish are ok. I went with the crushed coral because it's natural. That's the only thing I've added to the tank at this point other than the normal Prime for water changes. Crushed coral is even used as a substrate so I didn't think it could be bad.

Anyway, I appreciate your advice and agree with you. I am continuing to try to figure out the answers. I really don't want to restart the tank for obvious reasons. But if nothing else works then I may have to.


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I wasn't being nasty I know you would prefer not to use chemicals from our previous discussions and you have done lots to try and figure out the route of the problem.

I had a friend on here that no longer visits the forum. She told me her tap water was virtually RODI. Her tank is beautifully decorated with high light plants and is co2 injection. I do recall her cutting her tap water to maintain a ph balance. Her tank was large but lots more fish.

I'll give her a pm and see what she did to solve her problem.


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[Caliban07]

Uncgirl.

Do you have an inline water softener?


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[Delapool]

Personally I would be more focused on finding the cause of the alkalinity depletion. If you think it may be heterotrophic bacteria then why? The tank was stable at one time. If it is a vicious circle of heterotrophic bloom and resultant kh depletion you may be better off restarting the tank.

Chemical buffers are not normally advised on this forum so if you do go down the route of adding buffers to attain a certain ph just be careful.

I think that's a good point to continue finding the cause. The idea with the hetro bacteria was (off the top of my head) that it seemed to fit roughly with timing while the plants, substrate and driftwood have been ruled out as a serious problem. No doubt not helping though.

The nitrifying bacteria is possible but may be slow at that ph. It's the speed of the ph drop that I find impressive - despite the low kh, I find that a rather sudden drop and was looking at what could be a major problem (rather than causing a gradual decline eg fish). Even when I had no or very little kh I wasn't getting that sort of drop. Perhaps some sort of test we could do?? Although I want to avoid stressing the fish (even though I know they are doing well).

Second is getting on top of it and here I can't think of anything safer than crushed coral (relatively). In my own tank I would of gone for a buffer long ago and probably wiped out the latest plant crop. It's quite impressive the ph changes the fish have gone through.

So I agree with buffers as well that we don't usually find them needed (or worth the effort) but imo it gets the tank back to a nice ph level. Maintaining that ph will be the fun part. It's going to be a bit of effort but I can't see a problem.

 

[hjsvt]

I'm just curious what you recommend then for someone who has to or chooses to use RO water? What about the people trying to create breeding habit or shrimp habitat? What about the saltwater people? (I know absolutely nothing about saltwater but from my limited knowledge water issues are more of a challenge.) So is this forum's opinion and advice "No buffers, no pH adjustment = whatever your clear liquid can support that's what your stuck with?"

I'm not trying to stir the pot or be nasty. I'm just trying to understand. Sometimes I think the quick "no buffers, no pH adjustment lines" that are stated on every thread on the subject are made too often and too quickly without knowing what the person's water situation is. Maybe adding things to water to create your ideal fish habitat is considered "experienced" fish keeper. Just trying to make some sense of it all considering my own water/pH issues.

uncgirl1 - I'm so glad your pH drop was not as significant overnight! That's great news!! I hope it continues! You should see your KH rise slowly overtime but I don't know what that "time" frame would be. Also, another suggestion. Set up another bucket with a couple of gallons of tap water. I don't have any idea how expensive the crushed coral is but add as much to that bucket as you can reasonably afford. Monitor the KH on the bucket over a couple of days. If you can get the KH up a couple of points in a couple of days with lots of crushed coral (cost effective?) then use that water for water changes. Maybe a big food safe container if feasible somewhere in your house with lots of crushed coral and water sitting for days before use in the aquarium is an option over using a buffer. I know you'd like to avoid it. Just a thought. Maybe, space or cost doesn't make it worth it. But it something I am considering for my own issues. But I'd use peat to lower the pH and soften the water. Anyway, I'm going to post the results of my water/substrate experiment over in thread I started in the planted section so I don't hijack your thread anymore than I have done already! Hope you have a stable pH when you return home tonight!

 

[Delapool]

That's a good question I was thinking on.

It's the problems of trying to adjust ph really. People do for sure but lots of threads I have seen where it is unneeded or don't have enough knowledge or don't have the test equipment. When I say knowledge I mean you have to know what is in the buffer, what to adjust by and what the impact will be. That's pretty hard I think for a forum to know without some experimentation on the actual tank. And nobody wants to stuff up a good tank.

For example limestone can be quick reacting or if more dolomitic, then slower reacting. So the best advice to use say limestone may not actually work just due to limestone being different chemically in different locations.

Baking soda I have a note the sodium may be an issue in low gh tanks (look for leaf curl and dose calcium if needed). But I've asked a couple of times if baking soda causes issues in a planted tank and been told no.

I have a buffer that is supposedly right for plants but has caused so much grief.

And the last one is that every water change undoes all that hard work.

So I think with threads there is usually a check that the OP really wants/needs to do it and there isn't an easier solution. My thoughts anyways.

 

[hjsvt]

That's a good question I was thinking on.

It's the problems of trying to adjust ph really. People do for sure but lots of threads I have seen where it is unneeded or don't have enough knowledge or don't have the test equipment. When I say knowledge I mean you have to know what is in the buffer, what to adjust by and what the impact will be. That's pretty hard I think for a forum to know without some experimentation on the actual tank. And nobody wants to stuff up a good tank.

For example limestone can be quick reacting or if more dolomitic, then slower reacting. So the best advice to use say limestone may not actually work just due to limestone being different chemically in different locations.

Baking soda I have a note the sodium may be an issue in low gh tanks (look for leaf curl and dose calcium if needed). But I've asked a couple of times if baking soda causes issues in a planted tank and been told no.

I have a buffer that is supposedly right for plants but has caused so much grief.

And the last one is that every water change undoes all that hard work.

So I think with threads there is usually a check that the OP really wants/needs to do it and there isn't an easier solution. My thoughts anyways.

Thank you Delapool. I think that was great explanation and I appreciate the response. In my own very limited experience with water, fish and this forum, I think the quick response of "no pH adjusting, no buffer additions and copious water changes" is not the answer. But I also realize that in majority of newbie cases, maybe this is an appropriate answer. And this is a forum where no one is paid and it isn't somebody's daily job to help answer all the newbie questions out there. But maybe in a first response, some effort should be made to ask more questions about the person's water, it's source, what they've done for tests, etc. I just think for a certain percentage of new fish keepers experiencing issues (myself included in this percentage) typing out the "acceptable" words "no pH adjusting necessary, no buffers added, copious daily water changes will solve your problems" doesn't help and only discourages us and forces us to be skeptical of everything.

On this line of thinking, uncgirl1 have you talk to anyone in your Municipal Water Dept.? If you don't have a water softener in your house, do you know if your Water Dept. does? Just wondering if you know the source of your Municipal water supply and what they might be doing to it prior to supplying it for home use? It might be worth a phone call. Also, do you have any neighbors, friends, relatives close by who get their water from an alternative source? If so, could you ask them for a water sample to test? Maybe an alternative to your problem with soft water is similar to mine in that you mix a hard water source with your softer water? Just something to consider. That might be a more "acceptable" solution to increasing your KH without adding anything to the water. I think all possible options should be considered for cost and feasibility and if it turns out adding buffers is what makes the most sense, then I think given your efforts to do the best thing and your knowledge of the pros and cons, your choice is the right one.

 

[uncgirl1]

Uncgirl.

Do you have an inline water softener?


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Not that I know of. I had my house built about 2 years ago and I know it wasn't something that I had added. I don't know if the builder would have have added something like that. I'm not sure how I would find out.

I wasn't being nasty I know you would prefer not to use chemicals from our previous discussions and you have done lots to try and figure out the route of the problem.

I had a friend on here that no longer visits the forum. She told me her tap water was virtually RODI. Her tank is beautifully decorated with high light plants and is co2 injection. I do recall her cutting her tap water to maintain a ph balance. Her tank was large but lots more fish.

I'll give her a pm and see what she did to solve her problem.


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That would be fantastic! It would be helpful to hear what someone did to solve their own similar issue. Thank you!

 

[uncgirl1]

Thank you Delapool. I think that was great explanation and I appreciate the response. In my own very limited experience with water, fish and this forum, I think the quick response of "no pH adjusting, no buffer additions and copious water changes" is not the answer. But I also realize that in majority of newbie cases, maybe this is an appropriate answer. And this is a forum where no one is paid and it isn't somebody's daily job to help answer all the newbie questions out there. But maybe in a first response, some effort should be made to ask more questions about the person's water, it's source, what they've done for tests, etc. I just think for a certain percentage of new fish keepers experiencing issues (myself included in this percentage) typing out the "acceptable" words "no pH adjusting necessary, no buffers added, copious daily water changes will solve your problems" doesn't help and only discourages us and forces us to be skeptical of everything.

On this line of thinking, uncgirl1 have you talk to anyone in your Municipal Water Dept.? If you don't have a water softener in your house, do you know if your Water Dept. does? Just wondering if you know the source of your Municipal water supply and what they might be doing to it prior to supplying it for home use? It might be worth a phone call. Also, do you have any neighbors, friends, relatives close by who get their water from an alternative source? If so, could you ask them for a water sample to test? Maybe an alternative to your problem with soft water is similar to mine in that you mix a hard water source with your softer water? Just something to consider. That might be a more "acceptable" solution to increasing your KH without adding anything to the water. I think all possible options should be considered for cost and feasibility and if it turns out adding buffers is what makes the most sense, then I think given your efforts to do the best thing and your knowledge of the pros and cons, your choice is the right one.

I have contacted my water department. However, I live in very rural North Carolina. My town literally has about 1000 people in it. There are several of these towns that make up my county. There are 2 larger towns in my county but sadly, I don't live in them. My town office consists of a secretary and the mayor. That's it. The "water guy" doesn't actually work in the office. I have left messages for him but have been unable to reach him over the past week. So, for now, no answers are available in that regards. Excellent idea and I am on it. Sadly with no answers.

In your previous post you mentioned a few things. My mom lives in a big city about an hour away and I could certainly test her water. However, using it for water changes isn't really feasible. It's a 2 hour trip total. I'd rather see if I can figure out my own water. Also, crushed coral isn't horribly expensive but adding it to water constantly for the rest of my fish tank days would be! Again, I would rather try to figure out my own source of problems. It may be more difficult now but will hopefully be easier in the long run! Thanks for the advice though. If it comes to that, perhaps I will consider it.

 

[Caliban07]

I'm just curious what you recommend then for someone who has to or chooses to use RO water? What about the people trying to create breeding habit or shrimp habitat? What about the saltwater people? (I know absolutely nothing about saltwater but from my limited knowledge water issues are more of a challenge.) So is this forum's opinion and advice "No buffers, no pH adjustment = whatever your clear liquid can support that's what your stuck with?"

I'm not trying to stir the pot or be nasty. I'm just trying to understand. Sometimes I think the quick "no buffers, no pH adjustment lines" that are stated on every thread on the subject are made too often and too quickly without knowing what the person's water situation is. Maybe adding things to water to create your ideal fish habitat is considered "experienced" fish keeper. Just trying to make some sense of it all considering my own water/pH issues.

Thank you Delapool. I think that was great explanation and I appreciate the response. In my own very limited experience with water, fish and this forum, I think the quick response of "no pH adjusting, no buffer additions and copious water changes" is not the answer. But I also realize that in majority of newbie cases, maybe this is an appropriate answer. And this is a forum where no one is paid and it isn't somebody's daily job to help answer all the newbie questions out there. But maybe in a first response, some effort should be made to ask more questions about the person's water, it's source, what they've done for tests, etc. I just think for a certain percentage of new fish keepers experiencing issues (myself included in this percentage) typing out the "acceptable" words "no pH adjusting necessary, no buffers added, copious daily water changes will solve your problems" doesn't help and only discourages us and forces us to be skeptical of everything.

I think you may have misunderstood. "I didn't say no ph adjusting" "no buffers added" "copious water changes will solve you problems"

In the average community freshwater aquarium, ph altering is actually unnecessary in 90% of situations. Most freshwater fish can and will adapt to a wide range of ph values quite easily. Freshwater fish have regulating organs that are able to keep the blood ph within the correct range. That is not to say that acclimating a fish to a ph that is outside of its natural range does not place extra burden on these organs and the energy expenditure in order to do this may be increased but generally fish will adapt. Personally I would tend to opt for fish that are more suited to my tap water and I would say that fish do have a preferable ph but in most cases it is not a requirement.

Chasing a desired ph can be a tedious and frustrating endeavour for even experienced aquarist let alone beginners but at the same time in most cases advising people not to chase ph is often solid advice regardless of what the chemistry of their source water is.

People often ask why one would want to alter ph and the usual response is that there fish prefer this ph level. My first answer would be I agree but they will adapt. My second answer would be buy fish that prefer the ph of your tap water. Ph stability is more critical and is less dangerous for the fish than chasing a desired ph fact.

The use of buffers is not something that I am against i and often recommend them myself but as delapool pointed out, the term buffers is very broad. Natural slower buffers like peat moss, driftwood and crushed coral etc are natural and more stable buffers.

Commercially available ph altering solutions are unpredictable and generally don't work for long. This results in fluctuating ph which is not recommended by most on here.

As for saltwater. Actually RODI water is preferable if not imperative to reef keepers as it serves as a blank canvas for achieving the desired parameters necessary for the healtly growth of inhabitants. Natural salts will be used in conjunction with RODI water to achieve the correct salinity. These salts will incorporate the fundamental natural buffers such as calcium, magnesium, bi carbonates etc. These levels can then be maintained using systems such as kalkwasser or calcium reactors to keep alkalinity and calcium high as well as maintain the desired ph.

I honestly believe that uncgirl doesn't have to "put up" with this ph also. But I also believe that what she is experiencing can be rectified without the reliance on ph altering chemicals. It's not normal for ph to drop that low.



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[fishcrazy99]

You said you had driftwood in your tAnk? Thats exactly why your ph is low. Driftwood lowers ph more effectively in soft water too. Is your water discolored at all? Probably not with all the water changes. Am i the only one who caught that? I only skimmed the thread...


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[uncgirl1]

You said you had driftwood in your tAnk? Thats exactly why your ph is low. Driftwood lowers ph more effectively in soft water too. Is your water discolored at all? Probably not with all the water changes. Am i the only one who caught that? I only skimmed the thread...


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I wish it was that easy fishcrazy99. Unfortunately, it's not. I have already removed the driftwood and placed it in a seperate container. Not only is it not leaching any tannins, it doesn't alter the ph, kh, or gh of the water it's in. So, no. It's not the driftwood. I know it's a long thread. That's because we have tried about a million things it seems.

 

[fishcrazy99]

Also the ph of your tap when it comes out right away is often not the true ph reading. Add a bubbler (or anything to aggitate the water, for 48 hours and that will usually be your true ph because oxygen raises ph. You might have already said this but you have good water movement i assume? No still water. A bubbler? There are fish that love that type of water and im jealous because of it lol thats perfect for the german ram cichlids i wanted so bad. Meanwhile i have the opposite problem with a ph of 8.2. Most hardy species will easily adapt however a ph lower than 6 will begin killing off cycling bacteria. Decaying leftover fish food will lower ph, do you vacuum your gravel? Also some additives can mess with ph. Lastly, im not experienced with your type of substrate but theres no chance its messing with ph right?


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[uncgirl1]

Also the ph of your tap when it comes out right away is often not the true ph reading. Add a bubbler (or anything to aggitate the water, for 48 hours and that will usually be your true ph because oxygen raises ph. You might have already said this but you have good water movement i assume? No still water. A bubbler? There are fish that love that type of water and im jealous because of it lol thats perfect for the german ram cichlids i wanted so bad. Meanwhile i have the opposite problem with a ph of 8.2. Most hardy species will easily adapt however a ph lower than 6 will begin killing off cycling bacteria. Decaying leftover fish food will lower ph, do you vacuum your gravel? Also some additives can mess with ph. Lastly, im not experienced with your type of substrate but theres no chance its messing with ph right?


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I've covered all of your above suggestions. Sometimes more than once just to double check I tested right. lol In this thread are all kinds of tests done to driftwood, plant removal, more co2, less co2, substrate, shorter light hours, ph, kh, gh readings on a million water samples. Tank is not dirty. No decaying anything.

 

[fishcrazy99]

Dang, and your tap is higher? But the ph is low in the tank. Thats truely strange. How old is the test kit? Probably new and not a factor i bet lol


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[fishcrazy99]

All i can recommend is the use of crushed coral or another ph raising substrate


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