High Nitrates During Ich Treatment

[dkpate]

Prime only lasts about 24 hours, so you can dump a capful in there every day. Keep in mind that you will still get a false positive reading though, which means it will still read nitrates, although the are less toxic to the fish since the Prime binds to them.
Have you tried rinsing the filter media in old tank water? When my nitrates get above .5, I rinse the media and it brings them down. Gravel vacs also bring them down.
Are you shaking the crap out of nitrate bottle #2? I shook mine until my arm hurt, and then banged it on the counter a couple times. Also, make sure you shake the tube for 1 minute between bottle #1 and bottle #2.

 

[McLumpy]

Prime only lasts about 24 hours, so you can dump a capful in there every day. Keep in mind that you will still get a false positive reading though, which means it will still read nitrates, although the are less toxic to the fish since the Prime binds to them.
Have you tried rinsing the filter media in old tank water? When my nitrates get above .5, I rinse the media and it brings them down. Gravel vacs also bring them down.
Are you shaking the crap out of nitrate bottle #2? I shook mine until my arm hurt, and then banged it on the counter a couple times. Also, make sure you shake the tube for 1 minute between bottle #1 and bottle #2.

Hi! I didn't know that about the Prime only lasting 24 hours. But if adding it every day will help, I'll consider doing that from now on. For some reason I had it in my head that Prime stays in the tank longer and just added it once a week w/ my pwc's.

Actually, when I was doing my last pwc a week ago, I rinsed my filter media in the first bucket of tank water that I syphoned. I also removed the carbon at that point so I could begin the Ich treatment.

Oh and yes, I definitely shook the crap out of the Nitrate bottle #2, (for 30 seconds, as per the directions). Then, after placing 10 drops in the tube, I shook that for 1 minute.

I never banged bottle #2 on the counter though. Does that help relieve stress?

 

[OhNeil1969]

Prime only lasts about 24 hours, so you can dump a capful in there every day. Keep in mind that you will still get a false positive reading though, which means it will still read nitrates, although the are less toxic to the fish since the Prime binds to them.

Good info, but I had the opposite experience. After dosing with Prime and checking the next day everything was fine. In fact, daily checks after that didn't reveal any problems. I guess it goes to show that water testing is key. If you can stay on top of the testing you will eventually find the solution that works for you. Your situation may be unique, especially since you're seeing such a high nitrate spike.

 

[dkpate]

Yes, if your ammonia and nitrite go away you of course won't get readings. But if you have ammonia in the tank, dump Prime in and then test 2 hours later, you will still get a reading for ammonia, but it's a false positive. The back of the bottle tells you how much it binds to.

Prime
Product Description
Prime® is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels. Prime® also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime® is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime® will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water.Nearly all companies manufacture a product that removes chlorine. None of those, however, can compare in quality, concentration, or effectiveness to Seachem’s flagship product: Prime®. Prime® is the second most concentrated dechlorinator on the market after our own aquavitro alpha™. A single 100 mL bottle will treat 1000 US gallons of tap water. Prime® will remove both chlorine and chloramines from municipal water supplies.

Prime® also contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic. It is very important to understand how those two functions work together. All dechlorinators operate through a chemical process known as reduction. In this process, toxic dissolved chlorine gas (Cl2) is converted into non-toxic chloride ions (Cl-). The reduction process also breaks the bonds between chlorine and nitrogen atoms in the chloramine molecule (NH2Cl), freeing the chlorine atoms and replacing them with hydrogen (H) to create ammonia (NH3).
Typically, dechlorinators stop there, leaving an aquarium full of toxic ammonia! Seachem takes the necessary next step by including an ammonia binder to detoxify the ammonia produced in the reduction process.

Be very careful when purchasing water conditioners. If your municipality includes chloramines in the water supplies, a standard sodium thiosulfate dechlorinator is not enough. Prime® promotes the natural production and restoration of the slime coat rather than relying on artificial or non-native slime compounds. A further bonus for the ref hobbyist—Prime® will not overactivate protein skimmers.

Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. This removes approximately 1 mg/L ammonia, 4 mg/L chloramine, or 5 mg/L chlorine. For smaller doses, please note each cap thread is approx. 1 mL. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.

Info from: Seachem. Prime

I learned something new though! "If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose." I didn't know that.

 

[OhNeil1969]

Thanks for the info!

 

[hdultra]

I HAVE NEVER USED PRIME BUT WANT TO TRY IT.

I use 5 gallon buckets to do pwc. So is it saying that I should put in 1ml in each 5 gallon bucket. Right now I'm useing aqueon. As soon as I run out I'm switching over to Prime. Seems everyone here swears by it.

I'm glad you guys came on to the thread. As I did'nt want to mis guide, or give bad advice. I'm still learning new stuff all the time, and I really care for everyone on the site and the hobby. My fish are thriving because of everyone here.

Thanks Guy's n Gal"s

 

[Coleallensmom]

Honestly if it were me and I was 100% positive I tested correctly and my Nitrates were 160ppm, I'd be doing a PWC (ich treatment or not.) Like OhNeil said, the best way to lower nitrates is simply with PWC's. Prime is great to use and can help detoxify the nitrates but the only real remedy is fresh water. I'd do a PWC and redose with your ich meds. Keep your tank temp up until all fish are spot free for an entire week.

Also, completely off topic, but why are you worried about your PH? 7.6 is a perfectly normal PH. My own PH is very close to that from the tap. The Mopani wood may or may not lower your PH and most likely will leach tannins into your tank. Not that I don't love a good piece of driftwood in an aquarium, because I do...Just thought I'd mention that IMO your PH is not an issue.

 

[dkpate]

Prime doesn't detoxify nitrAtes, only ammonia and nitrites.

 

[Coleallensmom]

Product Description
Prime® is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels. Prime® also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime® is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime® will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water.Nearly all companies manufacture a product that removes chlorine. None of those, however, can compare in quality, concentration, or effectiveness to Seachem’s flagship product: Prime®. Prime® is the second most concentrated dechlorinator on the market after our own aquavitro alpha™. A single 100 mL bottle will treat 1000 US gallons of tap water. Prime® will remove both chlorine and chloramines from municipal water supplies.

Prime® also contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic. It is very important to understand how those two functions work together. All dechlorinators operate through a chemical process known as reduction. In this process, toxic dissolved chlorine gas (Cl2) is converted into non-toxic chloride ions (Cl-). The reduction process also breaks the bonds between chlorine and nitrogen atoms in the chloramine molecule (NH2Cl), freeing the chlorine atoms and replacing them with hydrogen (H) to create ammonia (NH3).
Typically, dechlorinators stop there, leaving an aquarium full of toxic ammonia! Seachem takes the necessary next step by including an ammonia binder to detoxify the ammonia produced in the reduction process.

Be very careful when purchasing water conditioners. If your municipality includes chloramines in the water supplies, a standard sodium thiosulfate dechlorinator is not enough. Prime® promotes the natural production and restoration of the slime coat rather than relying on artificial or non-native slime compounds. A further bonus for the ref hobbyist—Prime® will not overactivate protein skimmers.

Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. This removes approximately 1 mg/L ammonia, 4 mg/L chloramine, or 5 mg/L chlorine. For smaller doses, please note each cap thread is approx. 1 mL. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.

Info from: Seachem. Prime

Prime doesn't detoxify nitrAtes, only ammonia and nitrites.

Seachem. Prime FAQ

Q: How does Prime make a difference in reducing Nitrates?
A: The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it.

What Prime does or doesn't do is besides the point, isn't it? What I was trying to say was that I'd be uncomfortable dumping Prime in my tank everyday just because I didn't want to do a PWC.

 

[McLumpy]

Nitrate Update

Ok, ladies and gentlemen, here's the outcome...

Last night I added 2 capfuls of Prime to the tank. This morning I tested the Nitrates and there was absolutely no change. I went ahead and performed a 20% wc. This included a thorough vacuum of the substrate, filter media rinsing, (in old tank water), and filter canister/intake tube cleaning, (ran under extremely hot water and rubbed down by hand).

After refilling my tank w/ fresh water, (treated w/ Prime), and replacing the Ich Attack meds I removed during the pwc, I decided to go ahead and add the Mopani driftwood. It has been soaking for well over a week, and was waterlogged, so I figured now would be a good time to add it to the tank. So far, yes, it's releasing tannins, but not a large amount.

The driftwood was added more for decorative purposes, but the pH lowering benefit is a bonus. I know my pH level is within normal range, and from what I hear, driftwood doesn't decrease the pH much anyway. However, I am more interested at keeping the pH level steady at a slightly lower level than they are now.

After waiting approx. 5 hours, I tested the water again. Here are the results from making a pwc and adding the driftwood...

pH - 7.6
Ammonia - .25
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 120

I say 120 for the Nitrates because the color wasn't quite as dark as it shows for 160, but it was slightly darker than 80. This leads me to believe that the pwc did help, but only a little.

It looks like I'll begin daily pwc's and see if I can get the high Nitrate level under control. I'm just hoping that this won't delay me killing off what Ich may still be lurking around in the tank. The only fish that still has white spots is the Neon Tetra that I believe was the one that spread the Ich to the other fish. Until his spots are completely gone, I'll continue treating the tank, but it's just frustrating because I've never had to battle an outbreak this long. Meh.

Anyway, the next pwc that I will perform will be 50%. I only did a 20% pwc today because my RT Shark was flashing pretty bad and I didn't want to put him under too much stress. The other fish, however, are doing great! They're no longer flashing against objects, and my Pleco isn't lethargic anymore. In fact, he's awfully feisty!

I guess, more than anything, I was hoping I could drop my Nitrates faster using an alternative method than doing large amounts of pwc's. But, that's how it goes. I normally perform 1 pwc a week and keep the gravel free of fish waste/food particles, so I can't quite understand how the Nitrate level got so high in the first place.

Even though this is the 2nd tank I've owned, I consider myself quite the novice when it comes to managing water parameters. I truly appreciate everyone's advice/guidance and welcome any additional suggestions/comments. Hopefully I will get my tank back to normal soon.

Thanks again!

P.S. Sorry for the novel.

 

[OhNeil1969]

Sorry the Prime didn't bring the nitrates down, but it did actually work. After reading your post I did some research so I could have a better understanding. The Prime didn't lower the amount of nitrogen in your tank. It did, however, convert it to a form of nitrogen that is NOT toxic to fish. Nitrate is NO3 and nitrite is NO2. The Prime helps convert it to different forms of nitrogen, but the same amount of nitrogen remains present in your tank. Your water test, unfortunately, can't make the distinction between the different forms. Therefore, your readings will be the same, but your tank will be safer. Coleallensmom pretty much summed it up in her last post ("answer" part in last paragraph). Sorry if my lack of clarity misled you!

Good luck with your tank. I can tell you really care, so I'm sure everything will work out for the best.

 

[OhNeil1969]

BTW, learning this has got me stumped as to why my levels did change and stayed low. Also, please note that I intended to say that your water test cannot distinguish the difference between the nitrAte and the other forms of nitrogen. It will know the difference between nitrItes and the others. Go figure.

 

[dkpate]

Thank you Neil, apparently no one paid attention when I said that you will get a false positive reading on the ammonia, etc....

Cole's Mom, the reason I said to put the Prime in the tank every day was to avoid water changes since he is using meds....

Lumpy, make sure you keep using the meds after you see the last spot, like 2-3 more days.

 

[Coleallensmom]

Dkpate- I know why you said it...I just said I'd be uncomfortable doing that for several days in a row. I sympathize for the OP and I understand her hesitation...she's a in a tough spot. It's hard to know what to do sometimes when you've got sick babies and you just want to do what is right for them. (What I didn't understand is why you corrected my post when you said yourself that Prime helps bind NitrAtes.)

McLumpy- 50% sounds like a good percent. Hopefully it will only take a couple PWCs to get your Nitrates down to an acceptable level.

Don't expect an immediate change in your Ph from the wood. I had a fairly large piece in a tank for a period of time and while it did lower my PH some; it did it gradually. It wasn't an immediate thing.

 

[hdultra]

Mclumpy,

Let's know how you are doing. Your doing a great job so far.
You'll be glad you took the steps you did.
Wish you the best.

 

[dkpate]

Alisha, I just read through all of my posts, and not once did I say the Prime would bind to the nitrAtes, it will to the nitrItes and ammonia.

 

[Coleallensmom]

Re-read page three of this thread, Please.

It's not a big deal. Just explaining my previous posts. The original poster stated her water parameters were:

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 160ppm

OhNeil and I were both trying to advise that PWCs will help lower those Nitrates as they are extremely high.

 

[dkpate]

Yes, and they said that the pwc didn't change it, snd they are using meds to get rid of ich.

I don't have a page 3, I set mine up to be 50 posts per page.

 

[hdultra]

Ok, ladies and gentlemen, here's the outcome...

Last night I added 2 capfuls of Prime to the tank. This morning I tested the Nitrates and there was absolutely no change. I went ahead and performed a 20% wc. This included a thorough vacuum of the substrate, filter media rinsing, (in old tank water), and filter canister/intake tube cleaning, (ran under extremely hot water and rubbed down by hand).

After refilling my tank w/ fresh water, (treated w/ Prime), and replacing the Ich Attack meds I removed during the pwc, I decided to go ahead and add the Mopani driftwood. It has been soaking for well over a week, and was waterlogged, so I figured now would be a good time to add it to the tank. So far, yes, it's releasing tannins, but not a large amount.

The driftwood was added more for decorative purposes, but the pH lowering benefit is a bonus. I know my pH level is within normal range, and from what I hear, driftwood doesn't decrease the pH much anyway. However, I am more interested at keeping the pH level steady at a slightly lower level than they are now.

After waiting approx. 5 hours, I tested the water again. Here are the results from making a pwc and adding the driftwood...

pH - 7.6
Ammonia - .25
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 120

I say 120 for the Nitrates because the color wasn't quite as dark as it shows for 160, but it was slightly darker than 80. This leads me to believe that the pwc did help, but only a little.

It looks like I'll begin daily pwc's and see if I can get the high Nitrate level under control. I'm just hoping that this won't delay me killing off what Ich may still be lurking around in the tank. The only fish that still has white spots is the Neon Tetra that I believe was the one that spread the Ich to the other fish. Until his spots are completely gone, I'll continue treating the tank, but it's just frustrating because I've never had to battle an outbreak this long. Meh.

Anyway, the next pwc that I will perform will be 50%. I only did a 20% pwc today because my RT Shark was flashing pretty bad and I didn't want to put him under too much stress. The other fish, however, are doing great! They're no longer flashing against objects, and my Pleco isn't lethargic anymore. In fact, he's awfully feisty!

I guess, more than anything, I was hoping I could drop my Nitrates faster using an alternative method than doing large amounts of pwc's. But, that's how it goes. I normally perform 1 pwc a week and keep the gravel free of fish waste/food particles, so I can't quite understand how the Nitrate level got so high in the first place.

Even though this is the 2nd tank I've owned, I consider myself quite the novice when it comes to managing water parameters. I truly appreciate everyone's advice/guidance and welcome any additional suggestions/comments. Hopefully I will get my tank back to normal soon.

Thanks again!

P.S. Sorry for the novel.

It's been a pleasure Mclumpy. Let us know if you need anything-anytime..

 

[McLumpy]

Update after 50% WC

Wow! You guys are feisty!

Ok, soooooo... I got home last night to find that the majority of my fish were lethargic. My RT Shark was lounging on the gravel and his fins were clamped. I sprinkled some flakes in the tank and they perked up a little, but not like they usually do during feeding time.

Needless to say, I was pretty upset to see them like this and wasn't optimistic that a single wc would help... but low and behold... IT DID! I did a 50% wc, added 2 capfuls of Prime, replaced the Ich Attack meds, and once I was done, everyone was swimming around again! The RT Shark was still flashing pretty bad though and that had me extremely worried. However, this morning, he was perky as can be, wasn't flashing, and his fins weren't clamped!

Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to test my water last night because I passed out watching "House" w/ the hubby. lol But, as soon as I get home tonight, I will test and report back on here w/ the results.

I have no doubt in my mind that I will win this Nitrate and Ich battle! I'm still trying to figure out how the Nitrates got that high though?!

Again, I appreciate the support and encouragement you guys have shown! Hopefully someone with a similar situation will find the answers they need from reading this thread.