KILL YOUR UGF

[docrak]

I don't get it. All I see is a lot of opinion based on theoretical situations. Has anybody experienced a catostrofic failure or incident that cause a great deal of damage to a biosystem using an undergravel filter. I've been using one in my 29 gallon breeder tank because it easier to maintain than sponges and because it doesn't harm the fry. I have never had a problem with it even after stirring up the gravel. I run two power heads also.

Either way I really don't get it. There's a lot of crap on the internet it's hard to tell whats true. Who has really has something go wrong with an UG filter?

 

[wright4lfe]

lol, not this guy, he has yet to back up anything he's said, other than saying its his opinion.

i've run ugf's on all of my small tanks and nnever had a problem once. but thats probably because i do regular water changes and properly maintain my tanks.

if you do not properly maintain your tanks you will have failure on many different levels, regardless of what kind of filtration you use.

 

[Canuckfan]

If you're so sure of youself , why did you just go back & edit/delete your original post . Do you now realize that it was an inflamatory halftruth ? No one who has had the gall to disagree with your opinion thinks that UGF's will work in all situations . Most of us , I think , take issue with your original , unedited opinion , that UGF's will never work in any situation .


Just because I disagree with you , it doesn't make me a jerk . Just like you , people are entitled to there opinions .

Now I suppose you'll go back & edit your original post again .

 

[urville]

Saltrwaterdreams- someone without an attitude! YEAH! i agree we shall see. and i thought it wasnt all that bad either.

wright4life - gee shall i go out and get all kinds of info so you can out and gets all kinds of info and we can have a statistical and number battle. i dont think so. i'm not playing into your crap, YOU got a problem with what i said, i tried to explain it, still to dense? go read it yourself. i dont owe you anything., i mean who are you? i dont even know you. you could some backwoods idiot.
it IS my opinion from MY EXPERIENCE AND MY RESEARCH. you know your a sad individual, i never said anything rude to you and yet your every response and note is laced with attitude and arrogance. your blatantly obnoxious about it and treat me like i'm your enemy. so i'm not gonna give you an ounce of credit because you've proven your obviously close-minded and dense. what'd you expect? attitude was not required.

 

[urville]

Canuckfan - i edited my response because instead of being a discussion you made alot of claims to what i said that blatantly proved you didnt bother to really read and understand them. like when you claimed i said "I would tell newbies not to use canisters or any filter" which i never said any such thing. see i wanted to have a friendly conversation, and your d@mn right i'm not gonna sit there and have some guy tell me i'm being irresponsible telling people this and that, when i didnt. that makes you a jerk in my book, you dont get to say who i think is jerk it's my boundaries not yours. i am sure of myself, i WILL NEVER use a UGF again, I will tell people often i DONT THINK ITS THE BEST CHOICE. see it's one way i never attacked anything you said.
anyone can disagree, and i'll post my opinions in response to why i think it doesnt work, is that bad?

you should at least try to understand how you sound. i mean above WAS ONE thing you went off on. that i NEVER said. your putting words in my mouth and it's frustrating me. i liked these boards BECAUSE yu can say i disagree in a nice way and no one starts a war over it. thats not what you did. in fact here:

 

[urville]

Canuckfan - i edited my response because instead of being a discussion you made alot of claims to what i said that blatantly proved you didnt bother to really read and understand them. like when you claimed i said "I would tell newbies not to use canisters or any filter" which i never said any such thing. see i wanted to have a friendly conversation, and your d@mn right i'm not gonna sit there and have some guy tell me i'm being irresponsible telling people this and that, when i didnt. that makes you a jerk in my book, you dont get to say who i think is jerk it's my boundaries not yours. i am sure of myself, i WILL NEVER use a UGF again, I will tell people often i DONT THINK ITS THE BEST CHOICE. see it's one way i never attacked anything you said.
anyone can disagree, and i'll post my opinions in response to why i think it doesnt work, is that bad?

you should at least try to understand how you sound. i mean above WAS ONE thing you went off on. that i NEVER said. your putting words in my mouth and it's frustrating me. i liked these boards BECAUSE yu can say i disagree in a nice way and no one starts a war over it. thats not what you did. in fact here:

 

[urville]

Saltrwaterdreams- someone without an attitude! YEAH! i agree we shall see. and i thought it wasnt all that bad either.

wright4life - gee shall i go out and get all kinds of info so you can out and gets all kinds of info and we can have a statistical and number battle. i dont think so. i'm not playing into your crap, YOU got a problem with what i said, i tried to explain it, still to dense? go read it yourself. i dont owe you anything., i mean who are you? i dont even know you. you could some backwoods idiot.
it IS my opinion from MY EXPERIENCE AND MY RESEARCH. you know your a sad individual, i never said anything rude to you and yet your every response and note is laced with attitude and arrogance. your blatantly obnoxious about it and treat me like i'm your enemy. so i'm not gonna give you an ounce of credit because you've proven your obviously close-minded and dense. what'd you expect? attitude was not required.

 

[Guest]

Has anybody experienced a catostrofic failure or incident that cause a great deal of damage to a biosystem using an undergravel filter.quote]

Dirt is pulled under the gravel to decompose there. Your fish are still swimming in a tank full of sh*t only you can't see it. How does that not sound harmfull? Its like putting a new carpect on top of an old one. Also, why only use a filter that provides only biological filtration?There are so many other better filters available just like some people above have mentioned. Besides, ufg's take up space in the tank.

 

[urville]

canuck said:
What do you mean by unnatural ? Are you advocating using no filtration at all ? To rely on a heavily planted tank & water changes is not good advice , unless you also tell people to only stock about 10 neon tetras in a 50 gallon tank

I say: I never said that

you said: Eheim cannister filters are probably the best filters out there . How can you possibly bad-mouth them ? I can understand your stand on UGF's , but you lost all credibilty , in my eyes , by saying that an all natural system is superior to using canister filters .

I say: i dont like them because they submerse Bio-media making less efficient than other options, and more expensive than a good PF which will perform the same mechanical filtration. i respect your opinion do you respect mine?

you said: I think that it's highly irresponsible to tell a beginner to use no means of external filtration . And like I said before , I wouldn't tell a beginner to buy a UGF either .

I say: WHAT? I never said that.

then there your "i hope this doesnt sound like an attack" well everything BUT your first response sounds like an attack. if you think i'm saying these things to new people than we're seriously misunderstanding each other.

you said: You have obviously never used a UGF & have absolutely no grasp on how they perform

i say: thanks for telling me my life, mind informing me about tomorrow too? your a real nice guy arent you?

you said: o repeat , all UGF's provide is biological filtration . Your statement to the contrary is 100% false .

i say: i disagree, i feel its failed. can you live with that. or is this about making me believe your side and nothing else?

 

[Canuckfan]

At the risk of being called a troll , you're acting like a spoiled little child .

I'm also willing to bet that your system can't handle the bioload of a tank full of african cichlids or clown loaches or tinfoil barbs . I know a UGF can't & I have no problem saying this .

Your system , just like a UGF will work in some situations & not in others .

The namecalling doesn't accomplish anything . It just makes you look bad .

Hopefully someone will put a lock on this thread before it gets completely out of control .

 

[urville]

My orgiginal post said:
Ahem
"they cause more problems than they rectify" "they wont work as well as anything else" i said "anything other than ugf" here it is again unedited
i stand by that.

this isnt how this was supposed to go first. Second, it's america my opinion, your opinion both valid. and i thought i did that well. third i most certainly felt attacked. fourth, theres only two people making me feel this way, only two people i'm arguing with while i think more have said they disagree. hmmmm...

i admit people have used ugfs for ages, they can work. i did that posts and posts ago.
HOWEVER, in relation to any other choice they arent worth the time or effort, period. and they do not live up to claims made by the people who designed them. thats why i am trying to say.

honestly i'm sorry i ever tried. i'm saying i tried to be civil and not slander or become aggressive. but the more i felt attacked for my opinion vs. your opinion the more upset it got me. your also not understanding what i'm saying by natural okay. water passes through things in nature that bacteria live on, moss, plants, etc. it may even pass by the top of the bed too. a PF to me is much like passing through moss, same sorta consistincy etc. on the other hand a ugf is water pulled through the bed to an open vacant area and up a tube to the surface show me one place anything remotely like that happens in nature. obviously none of them is "LITERALLY" natural. i never said they were.
man...
i hope your proud and feel real... manly or whatever, cause this has like ruined my afternoon seriously. what started out a NICE debate turned real crappy. and i tried to keep my head but i admit you guys drove me crazy...

 

[docrak]

Dirt is pulled under the gravel to decompose there. Your fish are still swimming in a tank full of sh*t only you can't see it. How does that not sound harmfull? Its like putting a new carpect on top of an old one. Also, why only use a filter that provides only biological filtration?There are so many other better filters available just like some people above have mentioned. Besides, ufg's take up space in the tank.

My fish on occasion will put **** in their mouth mistaking it for food. There is **** in my 60-gallon tank sitting on the gravel. I can see it every time I clean my tank. My power filters suck up **** and it brakes down on the sponges, I'm sure that's not instantaneous. I don't see your point, that's how the filter is supposed to work. As long as there is no ammonia or nitrites, what's your point? How does the shear presence of fish **** harm my fish as long as the bacteria can handle the bioload and I maintain my tank?

My original question stands, has an under gravel filter ever killed any fish?

 

[urville]

thats my problem i think your making outraegous cliams on what i said. i thougth my god this guy is not even trying to see my side at all, he's totally misunderstanding me. man your really upsetting me, what do you expect? i dont care that you disagree! i care about your attitude towards me. i never said for anyone too USE MY SYSTEM.

 

[urville]

Dirt is pulled under the gravel to decompose there. Your fish are still swimming in a tank full of sh*t only you can't see it. How does that not sound harmfull? Its like putting a new carpect on top of an old one. Also, why only use a filter that provides only biological filtration?There are so many other better filters available just like some people above have mentioned. Besides, ufg's take up space in the tank.

My fish on occasion will put *beep* in their mouth mistaking it for food. There is *beep* in my 60-gallon tank sitting on the gravel. I can see it every time I clean my tank. My power filters suck up *beep* and it brakes down on the sponges, I'm sure that's not instantaneous. I don't see your point, that's how the filter is supposed to work. As long as there is no ammonia or nitrites, what's your point? How does the shear presence of fish *beep* harm my fish as long as the bacteria can handle the bioload and I maintain my tank?

My original question stands, has an under gravel filter ever killed any fish?

i want to ignore these other guys continue the real discussion.
i didnt think there could be that *beep* without causing more bioload and as it accumulates wont it add and add more bioload? i mean imagine after years? of course its always been my understanding that your supposed to take them out and clean beneath once every 12-18 motnhs when needed. not sure to the validity of that, again thats just on the package. every filter has killed fish when improperly used. have i met someone who had a crash from a plate. online yes, realworld no, cause everyone i know uses other forms of filtration. thats what i meant above. all that stuff keeps accumulating faster than it breaks down which is very slowly, and boom, at one point your carrying your bio-load, plus all the crap being given opff as the detritus slowly rots and gives off ammonia and what not. it seems like a deadly equation to be playing with. in fact MUCH of the controversy over UGF's as of late coem from those two sides and everyone has proof against the other. one side says they've had bad experiences the other side says it's fine some say it's just antiquated. old technology. thats mainly my points. possibly unsafe even during maintenance may as well be unsafe "IMO", if i cant reach that stuff under there during routine maintenance or by just driving the filter then i dont want it. eventually you have to change your PF, Canister, Wet/dry media, or clean it. and thats the knife in the heart of the UGF for me, that when cleaned it still holds detritus whre i cant get it. and that it is antiquated technology.

 

[Guest]

My fish on occasion will put *beep* in their mouth mistaking it for food. There is *beep* in my 60-gallon tank sitting on the gravel. I can see it every time I clean my tank. My power filters suck up *beep* and it brakes down on the sponges, I'm sure that's not instantaneous. I don't see your point, that's how the filter is supposed to work. As long as there is no ammonia or nitrites, what's your point? How does the shear presence of fish *beep* harm my fish as long as the bacteria can handle the bioload and I maintain my tank?

My original question stands, has an under gravel filter ever killed any fish?

I don't know about you, but I clean out the sh*t in my power filters & soak the sponge in clean water. If it's okay for large amounts of sh*t to stay in the tank then why did they invent gravel vaccums? Go swim in a pool with your own sh*t for one day & then you will see my point. I didn't keep an undergravel filter long enough to find out if they cause fish deaths. However, you can find a bunch of articles against undergravel filters from people's personal experiences that involve fish deaths.

 

[Canuckfan]

Like I said before , a well maintained UGF , used with smaller fish , will not cause some disaster to happen in your tank . If you don't maintain a Eheim Professional II canister filter , you will also eventually kill your fish .

I'm sure that people have lost fish using UGF's , but that's probably due to poor maintenance , putting the wrong fish in the tank or newbie mistakes . African cichlids & UGF's are not a good combination . Cleaning your gravel is something most people do on a regular basis , so to say that this is too much of a chore is simply not true . As for the gunk under the plates , I've had it come up with fry in the tank & there weren't any problems .

One of your main arguements is natural v. unnatural . This is just semantics . If your nitrites & amonia are zero , & your nitrates are under 20 , whatever filtration system you're using is perfectly alright . As for fish poo in the tank , weekly vacuming of the gravel serves exactly the same function as weekly cleaning of the sponge in a power or cannister filter . Even in your natural system , your sponge on the intake tube does not gather all of the waste in the tank .

The lack of anerobic bacteria in UGF's , cannisters , & power filters is irrelevant in FW tanks . As long as your nitrates are under 20 , you're fine . Plants use it as food . I know there's a debate on how harmfull nitrates are/aren't to fish , but no one has made a conclusive discovery for either side .

I'm sure your system works great for you . I just take issue with your broad stance that UGF's don't work or are a failed system .

 

[wright4lfe]

"you know your a sad individual"

lol, nice personal attack.

" your blatantly obnoxious about it and treat me like i'm your enemy. "

you come on this forum and make a thread calling ugf's pretty much the worst filtration possible. not quite a blatantly trolling thread, but still pretty bad.

"i dont even know you. you could some backwoods idiot. "

somebody from wyoming calling me a backwoods idiot. want to compare education/work salary/etc? or do you just want to continue acting like a 12 year old that no one is taking seriously?

 

[urville]

wright4life:
ahahaha. riiight.
ok sure lets compare because where you come from matters sooo much. and talk about 12 year olds you want a peeing contest. i'm supposed to care how you feel about me? is that required by the moderators? hey you attacked me for my right to my opinion and then defend it with the fact that you disagree with it, there ARE more civil ways, you are aware of this arent you?
i dont troll, i wish you had never read quite frankly, but you did ho-hum. i was honestly giving advice I feel is valuable, again think what you want, oh well. i may lean toward more experimental and controversial methods but it gives you no extra rights with me, and it's MY right so.....
again good luck with all that...


canuck: see it's not irrevlavant to me. I care. and so do obviously others, this isnt the only board i've had this discussion, it IS in fact the only board i had this problem! :|
and the semantics of that argument matter to me alot. it doesnt have to to you, but then i never invited anyone to come have an upfront problem, i came to discuss obviously its a board and to voice my opinion with people who dont mind. sorry it caused you such distress and unhappiness, in fact for the same reason i'm sorry to wright4life, what i'm not sorry for is beleiving my point of view, defending it and myself, and disliking aggresive board memebrs. these should all be my right. so you know we disagree, big deal. welcome to the internet, but when it becomes aggressive or for lack of a better word at the moment offensive i reserve again my right to voice my opinion.

AND ANYONE who was "scared" or lacked the "gall" as has been said to challenge my idea, please by all means i respect your experience and success but i wont change my mind based on that, and i wont bow to your will. sorry for feeling the way i do, that its not like you. i swear if my system fails i will humbly admit so. but if you just want to call me an idiot or pick a fight rather than discuss like adults PLEASE just move along. and sorry for the ranting and waht not but peole who can be... trying to be diplomatic here.. pushy and pompous dont go well with me.
ifsay TG came here and told me straight out i was an idiot i'd have to respect that, one theres a mod, two i respect from experiencethat persons opinion, and three i'd probably still dismiss it to differing beliefs and let it go. I did this in a discussion here not long ago. i still disagree from my personal experience and it didnt matter to them just like those guys doesnt to me. no biggy, doesnt make him an idiot or irresponsible or anything.
my god can we agree to disgree and i can continue my discussion?

 

[Canuckfan]

Would you please express why you feel that the lack of anerobic bacteria in a filter makes it a failed system ? All anerobic bacteria does is consume nitrate . It is present if you have a sand substrate that is allowed to compact . But this compacting of the sand is bad for plant roots & will eventually lead to toxic gas pockets .

All I want is some type of logical explanation . Cannisters & power filters do not contain anerobic bacteria unless you allow the sponges to clog up due to lack of maintenance . All you have said is that you feel strongly on this issue & that it is important to you . You have not stated why you feel this way . If you believe that nitrates are absolutely horrible , fine . I disagree , but at least say something to defend your position . And please don't send me to some other site . I went to the one you highlighted , looked at the FAQ & filtration part , & found no articles claiming that UGF's are the bogeymen you make them out to be .

 

[urville]

okay look to me a filter should match the ENITIRE nitrification cycle to be a "non-failed" filter. i my view.
so the problem is that almost all filters including ugf are failed to me because the dont match that system step for step like nature does. it always stops at nitrates, and to me thats unacceptable we came so far figured out so much and cant propel the hobby any further for over a decade? i dont think so, the methods are there people are either too scared or not that serious. anyway....
to cause nitrates to convert to nitrogen you need anaerobic bacteria. period. to get that you have to have one area in a filtration system that allows anaerobic pockets of some type. a very very low oxygen arealike a partially plugged filter media etc.
now do you understand? see i'm using a system that has anaerobic zones and in fact, i'm in line, and about the 1000th person at the very least o have success with this. i can intro you to people who's nitrate are 0, always... or 5 at the highest. anyway, so since i've seen filtering methods that do this, that COMPLETE the nitrification cycle i feel any filter that cant do this is old hat, failed, etc.

you have to understand i want a system that's natural and complete and do that as low-tech as possible. you know within reason, so of course i have a different view than the average hobbyist. but i still feel using a ugf is like driving a car with only 3 wheels, why do it. if you cant afford better, try saving it's so worth it, cbecause to switch later is crazy. and very time consuming and hard on an established system