Need a Sherlock Holmes

[DeaElise]

Hello fellow freshwater fish community!

I’m posting here because I think I’ve read every single forum on the internet and am still experiencing an issue.

One month ago we noticed sudden fish loss of a few tetras, so we immediately started diagnosing. We discovered one of our heaters had gone haywire and the temp of the tank was far too high (88 F) which we believe caused a spike in some type of bacteria or parasite, or something. Our fish (tetras, loach, pleco) had cloudy white eyes, were hanging around at the surface, white patches on the body, and fins were a bit torn looking. No new fish had been added, and some new live plants had been added recently.

We began treating the tank over the next six weeks with 25% water changes every other day, and various API treatments: AmmoLock, NitraZorb, General Cure, EM Erythromycin, Melafix, Pimafix, and Fin and Body Cure. After weeks of treatments and care, and a few more fish lost, API Fin and Body Cure seemed to be the thing that helped our fish look and feel back to normal. We had also tested the water throughout all of this, and our Ammonia levels continuously hovered at .5 - 1.5 ppm, regardless of anything we did. However, fish looked good and were acting totally normal for weeks. We continued biweekly water changes, AmmoLock, Melafix, and Pimafix to be safe.

Today, seemingly out of nowhere, our fish have white eyes again, a few tetras are swimming at the surface, and a few fins look torn. I’m honestly baffled. Not sure if we have a perpetual Ammonia issue that flared up again, or if it’s something else. Water stats are below for reference (just tested this morning). I’ve treated the tank immediately this morning with API Fin and Body, Mela, Pima, General Cure, Stress Coat, and AmmoLock but we’re so stumped why this is happening again.

Any insights are SO appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Tank stats:
- 40 Gallon Freshwater
- 8 medium sized tetras, 1 loach, 1 large pleco, live plants, driftwood
- PH: 6.2 (seems lower than normal, will be adding Proper PH)
- AMMONIA: .5 ppm
- NITRATE: 0 ppm
- NITRITE: 0 ppm
- Temp: 77 F

 

[Aiken Drum]

You say your ammonia was 0.5 to 1.5ppm throughout all your endeavours. Has the tank ever been cycled? How long has your tank been set up?

You are still seeing ammonia, and you are showing no nitrate so your tank isnt cycled now. It either never was if its a newish set up, or you somehow crashed your cycle.

Do you know if your tapwater is chlorine or chloramine treated? Does your tap water test +ve for ammonia?

 

[DeaElise]

I should have mentioned this tank is five years old. Definitely had a good cycle going. Do you think when we did the emergency treatments we crashed the cycle? After we finished treatments a few weeks back we added Quick Start bacteria back in, and reduced the filter changes to keep some bacteria in.

And we do treat our tap water with Stress Coat and Aqua Essential. Our plain tap water doesn’t seem to test any ammonia either.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Anything genuinely antibiotic is possible it will kill off the bacteria responsible for your cycle. From what im reading the ingredients of general cure will only kill anaerobic bacteria, so your denitrifying bacteria should be ok. Not sure on the ingredients of the fin and body cure.

Something has crashed your cycle though. Either before you started your treatments, or something that happened during your treatment.

Interesting your comment on your pH, because ive been reading up on ammo lock recently and its use often coincides with a drop in pH. The speculation being that it works by lowering pH. At lower pH ammonia is much less toxic. Its use also often coincides with an inability to cycle a tank, so that could be why you arent able to re-establish your cycle. Maybe stop using ammo lock and switch to prime as your water conditioner to detoxify ammonia.

Can you post photos of your affected fish. Im not great at diagnosing fish diseases, but we have a couple of members who are much better at it than me.

 

[Colin_T]

Hi and welcome to the forum

Did you do anything to the tank yesterday?
Did you have visitors over yesterday?

Can you post pictures of all the fish showing white patches or cloudy eyes, and a picture of the entire aquarium?
Check pictures on your computer before posting to make sure they are in focus and clearly show the issue.

What are the tank dimensions (length x width x height)?

What is the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate of the tap water?

What is the GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness) and pH of your water supply?
This information can usually be obtained from your water supply company's website or by telephoning them. If they can't help you, take a glass full of tap water to the local pet shop and get them to test it for you. Write the results down (in numbers) when they do the tests. And ask them what the results are in (eg: ppm, dGH, or something else).

Ask your water supply company or check their website and find out if you have chlorine or chloramine in the tap water.

Before this started, how often did you do water changes and how much did you change?
Do you gravel clean the substrate when you do a water change?
Do you dechlorinate the new water before you add it to the tank?

What sort of filter is on the aquarium?
How often and how do you clean the filter?

Do you have buckets and hoses specifically for the fish tank?
Do you have creams, soap, oil, perfume, hand sanitiser or anything else on your hands which might wash off in the aquarium?

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WARM WATER
A temperature of 88F is not going to cause this. The warmer water might have encourage harmful protozoa to bloom and this can cause cream, white or grey patches over parts of the body. However, poor water quality or chemicals can also cause cream, white or grey areas on the body, and cloudy eyes.

The higher temperature would have reduced the oxygen level and that could cause the fish to gasp at the surface if there was insufficient aeration/ surface turbulence. However, poisons/ chemicals in the water can also deplete oxygen levels and cause fish to gasp.

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ID THE PROBLEM
It's preferable to identify a problem before adding things to try and cure mystery ailments. A big (75%) daily water change, gravel cleaning the substrate, wiping the inside of the glass down, cleaning the filter and increasing aeration might have fixed the issue. This is first aid for any fish tank that has sick fish in. The water changes, gravel cleaning and cleaning the filter dilute any disease organisms or poor water quality and buy you time to try and work out what is going on. The extra aeration/ surface turbulence increases oxygen levels and helps relax fish but also makes it easier for them to breath.

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MEDICATIONS
Do you normally have API Nitra-Zorb in the filter?
You don't want this stuff in the filter because it stops the beneficial filter bacteria from growing.


API General Cure contains Praziquantel (treats tapeworm and gill flukes) and Metronidazole, which is an antibiotic designed for people, but can be used to treat internal protozoan infections in fish (if they have an internal protozoan infection).

EM Erythromycin is an antibiotic designed for people and should not be used in aquariums unless absolutely necessary.

API Fin and Body Cure contains Doxycycline, which is a Tetracycline based antibiotic designed for people. It shouldn't be used in aquariums either unless it's a known bacterial infection that responds to this medication.

Antibiotics should not be used unless there is a known bacterial infection that hasn't responded to normal treatments, and you know what sort of bacteria it is because different antibiotics treat different bacteria. Mis-use of antibiotics has lead to drug resistant bacteria that kill birds, fish, animals, reptiles and people all around the world. We need to minimise our use of these where possible.

Red areas on the body or fins are more common symptoms of external bacterial infection. Cream, white or grey patches or film over the body is normally caused by external protozoan parasites or poor water quality or chemical poisoning.

Melafix and Pimafix don't do anything except make the aquarium smell like a wet Eucalyptus forest.

If you don't normally have the API Nitra-Zorb in the filter, and you only added it to try and sort out these issues, then the antibiotics (General Cure, Erythromycin, and Fin & Body Cure) will have wiped out the filter bacteria and this is why you now have ammonia problems.

If you do normally have the API Nitra-Zorb in the filter, then it probably became full due to the ammonia from the dead fish and rotting matter in the substrate and filter, and this is no longer working, hence the ammonia readings.

Either way, the best solution for ammonia, nitrite or nitrate readings is big (75%) water changes and gravel cleaning the substrate. Do this every day until the levels are 0ppm.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

Clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks. However, if the filter is less than 6 weeks old, do not clean it. Wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use the media. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn. Cleaning the filter means less gunk and cleaner water with fewer pathogens so any medication (if needed) will work more effectively on the fish.

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WHAT TO DO NOW?
Post pictures of the fish and tank.
Wipe the inside of the tank down.
Clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks.
Do a big water change and gravel clean the substrate every day until we work out what is going on.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

 

[Andy Sager]

Until you've posted the information requested there's not much more I can add but I'd like to address the use of medications.
Antibiotics can be very useful in treating sick fish but antibiotics work in the presence of correct water conditions. There is a proper Ph and hardness levels that make the antibiotic effective. Some antibiotics will work under any circumstance but the choice for these is limited.
Em( Erythromycin) has an extremely limited purpose in aquariums and unfortunately is recommended incorrectly too often. While touted as a " first med to use", it's more a last choice when nothing else is available.
There are broad spectrum treatments that will treat gram positive and gram negative bacteria so using 5 or 6 different meds is not necessary and a waste of money (imo) . But before choosing what med to use, knowing your water parameters is important to make the choice.

As previously mentioned, the 88 degrees is not going to cause the fish to get sick while reducing the temp too quickly can cause the stress that causes the fish to get sick.

Again, the key to properly medicating fish is to make a proper diagnosis of the problem and all too often, that doesn't happen. I know many people rely on the internet for diagnosing but I recommend an older book that has a great flow through diagnostic chart in it. The book is " Handbook of fish diseases" by Deiter Untergasser. I've seen it available on Amazon, Ebay, Abe books and other sites and can be purchased for very little money. I will say that because it's an older book, out since the late 1980s, some of the medications it recommends are either no longer available or available under different brand names but that doesn't really matter. The diagnostic chart alone is worth the price of the book as it will save more fish by properly diagnosing issues. There are 2 versions of the book, a 1989 version and a 1992 version. I have not seen the '92 issue and still use my '89 copy but I have to assume the flow chart exists in both versions. It's not going to diagnose EVERY disease that is currently effecting our fish because new diseases and viruses have been created since it's printing but will get a good amount of the most common ones. Once you know what you are trying to treat and your water conditions, good advice on what's available today to use to treat the condition can be given.
Hope this helps