I have researched a reactor till I confused myself with everything I read! I have been so so close to buying one several times but I just get confused with all the info out there and what to believe. I would be very open to your suggestion for a good reactor.
Need help with Nitrates in Oscar's tank!
- Thread starter DRoller
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Jmunroe
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Is this the same as using purigen? I've heard it works good but haven't picked up any yet.
Also to the op you should invest in a bigger filter to be safe. I'm surprised you don't end up with a small ammonia reading from time to time.
The worst Ammonia spike I ever measured was 0.25.
In my In my research on reactors I came across purigen what I have read it works for Nitrates at low flow rate less than 50 gph. Works in canister filters for Ammonia and Nitrites at high flow rate and polishes the water. Just stating what I've read not experienced.
bshenanagins
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Ill get back to you tonight I'm currently at work I will explain
bshenanagins
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Np I'm on my way home now ill put up the link when I get in
Ok so here it is http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=387870
Personally, I would use something a little larger than what he used since he has a smaller tank and less bioload. Anyway, you were right earlier about the 50 GPH or less. Most pumps like the rios tell you how much head loss you get with tubing length and height from tank etc. so it shouldn't be too difficult to get the right flow. I know there's a lot of people who will refute Denitrates effectiveness but I'm pretty sure most of them never read the fine print about the flow rate in order for it to work. I have tried this and it actually did a great job on my tank, less than 5 ppm. I'd show a pic but I gave it to my uncle for his 36 gallon reef as I didn't NEED it just wanted to test it lol. I can't attest for phosphate removal like he claims but that's not an issue for a freshwater setup unless its planted a certain way. Hope this helps, don't be afraid of a DIY project they are fun and rewarding. Just take a gander at what a premade reactor goes for, Yikes!!
Last edited:
TheCommunityCichlid
Aquarium Advice Addict
Bigger more frequent water changes... Solves everything. Especially trates
Never had purigen help with trates just makes my water a little more clear
Never had purigen help with trates just makes my water a little more clear
bshenanagins
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I agree with the WC's as well. But sometimes we can't always follow our schedule to the T right? This is a good buffer. As I mentioned of course your TDS rating will increase but it will have less of an effect than the nitrogen spiking. It's not a Replacement for WC's, just a buffer. Don't wana upset anyone on this lol. Yeah purigen didn't really show me anything in my tanks that polyfill couldn't accomplish so I currently have no use for it. Plus I enjoy my tannins
Just to a quick look at the link and really liked what I see, defiantly going to do something like that. Only have one problem I am a perfectionist and I drive my wife nuts when I do a DIY project, even more of a reason to do it!
I did a 50 gallon water change on Sunday and I will do another tonight and check Nitrates tomorrow. I will try to stay on a Sunday and Wednesday schedule at 50 gallons and see if I can maintain a decent reading while I get my Nitrate Reactor built.
Jmunroe
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Are you doing 50 gallon or 50% water changes? 50 gallon won't be enough to keep nitrates down with your stocking. You would need to do at least 50% twice a week but 60% twice a week would be better
I am doing 50 gallon on a 125 tank that has an 1' - 1.5" of substrate with two pieces of driftwood one large piece and one extra extra large piece, along with some lime stone caves for the Convicts. Doing a little quick math and some estimating I have 100 gallons of water in the tank. When the water level is less than an inch from the top of Oscar sitting on the bottom of the tank I am at 50 gallons out that where I stop start and refill.
You don't need a bigger filter: you're already filtering perfectly, that's the problem.
Filters turn Ammonia (very bad) into Nitrite (quite bad)
They also turn Nitrite (quite bad) into Nitrate (not so bad, but not great at high concentrations)
Your filter is working ideally, turning all the toxic ammonia into less toxic nitrate (via nitrite): it just happens to be that you're fairly heavily stocked and have messy fish, so your Oscar is making lots of ammonia which is being converted to nitrate.
Basically there are only three ways to remove/reduce nitrate from your tank (or four, kinda)
1) Water changes to physically remove it. Very simply, removing 50% of the water removes 50% of the nitrates. As such, it is impossible to get rid of with water changes alone. It sounds (assuming your kit doesn't max out at 160ppm) like you're getting a solid 160 and halving it to 80 once per week, before it bounces back to 160 ovver the course of a week: so your fish are producing about 80 per week. As such, you're only ever going to vary between 80 and 160ppm. If you did 50% water changes twice per week you could reduce it to between 40 and 80ppm (removing 40ppm twice per week instead of 80ppm once a week). This involves twice as much work but keeps your nitrate level at half of the current level.
2) Reduce the bioload - you're heavily stocked in terms of bioload so removing some fish or downsizing the Oscar or plec would help. I removed my common plec as he was a heavy load producer. Admittedly I couldn't get rid of my Oscar, I like him too much but perhaps you've got another fish you're less attached to? Reducing feeding works, too - there's nothing wrong with a slightly hungry fish and Oscar's can be fed every 2 or 3 days easily. Mine gets fed anywhere between 2 and 5 times per week, but I aim for 3 or 4 alternating weekly. They'll beg for food, but that's because as far as I can tell it's impossible for an Oscar to not want food: he'll be fine without it some days though.
3) Plants absorb the nitrate and turn it into plant matter, making them grow. By removing some of the plants (ie cutting them back) you remove nitrate from the tank. This is basically the same effect as a water change but the plant keeps nitrate down in the water, and you have to do it less often. Your problem here is that your Oscar will most likely eat the plants and excrete them as ammonia again...
4) Similar to plants, but artificially done with special medias available from most filter manufacturers. These absorb the nitrate and you simply remove them when they're full.
In reality the cycle is basically
Fish eat Nitrogen in the form of plant matter
Fish excrete ammonia
Ammonia is converted to nitrate and nitrite - all three of which are absorbed by plants (although mostly nitrate)
Fish eat the plants.
Ad infinitum
The ideal alternative would possibly be to add a sump to your tank (or move to a sumped tank), then you can have plants and algea in a refugium away from the hungry fish. This is probably the direction I'll be heading once I upgrade. Otherwise it's a case of water changes and possibly nitrate-absorbing media.
Filters turn Ammonia (very bad) into Nitrite (quite bad)
They also turn Nitrite (quite bad) into Nitrate (not so bad, but not great at high concentrations)
Your filter is working ideally, turning all the toxic ammonia into less toxic nitrate (via nitrite): it just happens to be that you're fairly heavily stocked and have messy fish, so your Oscar is making lots of ammonia which is being converted to nitrate.
Basically there are only three ways to remove/reduce nitrate from your tank (or four, kinda)
1) Water changes to physically remove it. Very simply, removing 50% of the water removes 50% of the nitrates. As such, it is impossible to get rid of with water changes alone. It sounds (assuming your kit doesn't max out at 160ppm) like you're getting a solid 160 and halving it to 80 once per week, before it bounces back to 160 ovver the course of a week: so your fish are producing about 80 per week. As such, you're only ever going to vary between 80 and 160ppm. If you did 50% water changes twice per week you could reduce it to between 40 and 80ppm (removing 40ppm twice per week instead of 80ppm once a week). This involves twice as much work but keeps your nitrate level at half of the current level.
2) Reduce the bioload - you're heavily stocked in terms of bioload so removing some fish or downsizing the Oscar or plec would help. I removed my common plec as he was a heavy load producer. Admittedly I couldn't get rid of my Oscar, I like him too much
but perhaps you've got another fish you're less attached to? Reducing feeding works, too - there's nothing wrong with a slightly hungry fish and Oscar's can be fed every 2 or 3 days easily. Mine gets fed anywhere between 2 and 5 times per week, but I aim for 3 or 4 alternating weekly. They'll beg for food, but that's because as far as I can tell it's impossible for an Oscar to not want food: he'll be fine without it some days though.3) Plants absorb the nitrate and turn it into plant matter, making them grow. By removing some of the plants (ie cutting them back) you remove nitrate from the tank. This is basically the same effect as a water change but the plant keeps nitrate down in the water, and you have to do it less often. Your problem here is that your Oscar will most likely eat the plants and excrete them as ammonia again...
4) Similar to plants, but artificially done with special medias available from most filter manufacturers. These absorb the nitrate and you simply remove them when they're full.
In reality the cycle is basically
Fish eat Nitrogen in the form of plant matter
Fish excrete ammonia
Ammonia is converted to nitrate and nitrite - all three of which are absorbed by plants (although mostly nitrate)
Fish eat the plants.
Ad infinitum
The ideal alternative would possibly be to add a sump to your tank (or move to a sumped tank), then you can have plants and algea in a refugium away from the hungry fish. This is probably the direction I'll be heading once I upgrade. Otherwise it's a case of water changes and possibly nitrate-absorbing media.
audigex,
I am looking into what your #4 sugestion, to reduce with filter media. I have researched Reators untill I have confused myself. All I can tell you that about everyone agrees on is low flow for Nitrate removal. I have looked at the link that bshenanagins posted for a DIY reactor probably headed down that road.
I love my O so he aint going anywhere and the wife loves her Convicts so may look to see if I can re-home the Pleco.
I just got the 125 for O back in Feburary of this year thinking it would be big enough, probably would have if I not added the Convicts! I have been looking into a 300 but the wife gets new flooring before I and O get a 300 with a sump.
I am looking into what your #4 sugestion, to reduce with filter media. I have researched Reators untill I have confused myself. All I can tell you that about everyone agrees on is low flow for Nitrate removal. I have looked at the link that bshenanagins posted for a DIY reactor probably headed down that road.
I love my O so he aint going anywhere and the wife loves her Convicts so may look to see if I can re-home the Pleco.
I just got the 125 for O back in Feburary of this year thinking it would be big enough, probably would have if I not added the Convicts! I have been looking into a 300 but the wife gets new flooring before I and O get a 300 with a sump.
A 125 should be fine for Oscar and the Convicts - if you got a larger tank they wouldn't mind, but they would still produce the same amount of nitrate, it would just take longer to build up and be harder work (larger water changes) to remove.
Nitrate removal needs a slow flow because the bacteria use a different process to convert them.
You fish produce NH3 (Ammonia)
Bacteria then remove the Hydrogen (H) in a process which combines the Nitrogen (N) with Oxygen (O) from your water to make NO2 - Nitrite.
A similar bacteria then combines the Nitrate (NO2) with more Oxygen to create NO3 - Nitrate. These processed both require water with lots of air in - so a fast flow is ideal to keep the oxygen flowing.
A final bacteria removes the Oxygen (the O2 part) from the Nitrate (NO3) to convert it back to Nitrogen (N2) gas which can float safely out of your aquarium in small quantities. The problem here is that this bacteria uses the Oxygen bound in NO3 for its respiration (breathing, basically, kinda)... if there is too much oxygen in the water, it would use that instead, or simply be out-grown by other bacteria which can use oxygen. As such, you need a very slow flow through a large area for this to work: aerobic (oxygen using) bacteria at the start of the slow flow use the oxygen in the water, allowing anaerobic (non-oxygen-using) bacteria to survive further along.
This has a potential downside in that these final anaerobic bacteria can release other compounds and gases which are toxic in large quantities (this is why a deep sand bed can poison your fish): as such they need to be carefully designed and ideally kept away from the fish.
Some of these medias don't actually convert the Nitrate into Nitrogen, they just absorb it and hold it until they are full, at which time you remove them (either because they are no longer useful, or because they can start releasing toxins back into the water). Seachem Purigen is an example of this. Others are simply a media and container which lend themselves to a slow flow and anaerobic conditions.
The pleco may be the best bet for removal for a few reasons
1) He will have a heavy bioload - plecos are notoriously messy, especially at 8+ inches
2) You probably don't actually see that much of him? So won't miss him as much
3) He eats Algea. I know algea can be a bad thing, but in some ways it can be helpful, using nitrate in a way similar to plants mentioned in my previous post.
Nitrate removal needs a slow flow because the bacteria use a different process to convert them.
You fish produce NH3 (Ammonia)
Bacteria then remove the Hydrogen (H) in a process which combines the Nitrogen (N) with Oxygen (O) from your water to make NO2 - Nitrite.
A similar bacteria then combines the Nitrate (NO2) with more Oxygen to create NO3 - Nitrate. These processed both require water with lots of air in - so a fast flow is ideal to keep the oxygen flowing.
A final bacteria removes the Oxygen (the O2 part) from the Nitrate (NO3) to convert it back to Nitrogen (N2) gas which can float safely out of your aquarium in small quantities. The problem here is that this bacteria uses the Oxygen bound in NO3 for its respiration (breathing, basically, kinda)... if there is too much oxygen in the water, it would use that instead, or simply be out-grown by other bacteria which can use oxygen. As such, you need a very slow flow through a large area for this to work: aerobic (oxygen using) bacteria at the start of the slow flow use the oxygen in the water, allowing anaerobic (non-oxygen-using) bacteria to survive further along.
This has a potential downside in that these final anaerobic bacteria can release other compounds and gases which are toxic in large quantities (this is why a deep sand bed can poison your fish): as such they need to be carefully designed and ideally kept away from the fish.
Some of these medias don't actually convert the Nitrate into Nitrogen, they just absorb it and hold it until they are full, at which time you remove them (either because they are no longer useful, or because they can start releasing toxins back into the water). Seachem Purigen is an example of this. Others are simply a media and container which lend themselves to a slow flow and anaerobic conditions.
The pleco may be the best bet for removal for a few reasons
1) He will have a heavy bioload - plecos are notoriously messy, especially at 8+ inches
2) You probably don't actually see that much of him? So won't miss him as much
3) He eats Algea. I know algea can be a bad thing, but in some ways it can be helpful, using nitrate in a way similar to plants mentioned in my previous post.
bshenanagins
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I agree with the plant concept as well. I would advise a sump also but if the tank isn't drilled its much more involved and I don't think the OP is up for that project. But back to plants, here is another solution I found a while back and I thought it was pretty genius
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forum...New-DIY-Nitrate-filter-started-om-my-210-tank
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forum...New-DIY-Nitrate-filter-started-om-my-210-tank
Have you seen or heard of this media Marine Pure Biofilter media www.cermedia.com ? I have emailed them and they suggested one of their large blocks in the bottom of my tank just to give the anoxic bacteria a place to grow. This has also been a thought I have been mulling over I just don’t want to waste any more money. Their big block run $67.99 or if I do a reactor it’s min $100.00 plus media unless I do a DIY.
I understand my bio load is over whelming my system I will probably get rid of the pleco to start with, I am just trying to find a way to get my Nitrates to a manageable amount with one large water change a week.
I understand my bio load is over whelming my system I will probably get rid of the pleco to start with, I am just trying to find a way to get my Nitrates to a manageable amount with one large water change a week.
Already have starts of Ponthas Ivy growing in the tank, am picking up my plastic today to replace the glass top to make a basket that drops into the tank water. looking at Aquaponic plants to put in it. So yes I am up for anything just suggest I will try it if not too much money!
I have already spent a butt load of money on this aquarium which I don't have a problem with the wife is starting to get a bit ticked at me for it. Got a senior in college and a senior in high school so money not of abundance right now.
bshenanagins
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Haha sounds like my GF. Most of my paychecks go to my tanks, and her of course
but yeah I'd stick with DIY. I don't see it being any different than putting some type of pourus rock in there that I'm sure would cost a fraction of what they are asking for.I just put a very large piece of driftwood in that has allot of cracks in it do you think this will allow the anoxic bacteria to grow or does it need to be rock or ceramic?Haha sounds like my GF. Most of my paychecks go to my tanks, and her of course
Anaerobic bacteria will grow anywhere there is a flow of water which contains Nitrate but has been stripped of the oxygen: some will grow in the cracks in certain pieces of bogwood, but not to any great extent.
Most normal objects do not lend themselves to this type of bacteria growth, which is why most people who try it use special media designed to facilitate their growth.
Most normal objects do not lend themselves to this type of bacteria growth, which is why most people who try it use special media designed to facilitate their growth.
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