Need serious help... (sorry - long)

[squealor]

Ok, I need some serious help with my plants. It’s now at the point where we are going to rip them all out and buying plastic ones unless I can figure out what is going wrong.
The tank is a 46 gallon which has been set up for almost exactly one year (see fish list in signature). It is not in direct sunlight; however the room gets some sunlight. We have a CF light with 110 watts. We fertilize with the entire Flourish line on their recommended daily schedule. And we have two Hagen Plant Gro CO2 Natural Systems. The CO2 systems were originally a concern that they would not product enough CO2 for our tank, so we got two. The problem is that we often have to replace the sugar, water, yeast, etc. It doesn’t seem to last long at all, nor does it produce many bubbles.
We did have some Watersprite in the tank; however, it was growing so fast and overtaking everything else. We heard that they can eat up lots of nutrients and figured maybe that was why the rest of the plants were all dying, so we pulled it out. The other plants kept dying. Hearing that possibly having a more heavily planted tank might help, we recently bought a ton of plants from AZGardens.com. The plants were absolutely beautiful! We planted them and enjoyed for a few weeks, until we watched them one by one completely disintegrate. The only plants that seem to be surviving are Wisteria, Algae Balls, some Java moss, Moneywort (although it’s not looking that good), and an Anubias (which is a home to some algae). The Corkscrew Vals did the worst… disintegrating in mere days. We get some algae, but not too much.
Our pH is at a constant 7.0 due to treating the water (Jungle Labs pH Stable 7.0 Liquid) before water changes (our tap water is a very high pH and our tank water is at 7.0 due to driftwood, so we need to treat or we kill some fish). Our Kh was 60 and Gh was 80. The only test that seems off kilter is the phosphates, which is always through the roof (literally as high as the test goes no matter when we test or how much water we change). The only other things that might have any effect are we occasionally treat with Pimafix and Melafix if fish look stressed or after a water change and we use Prime to treat tap water.
Any suggestions as to what I’m doing wrong? I’m leaning towards it being the CO2, but I’m not sure. I’m willing to set up a pressurized CO2 system if people think it will make a difference!

 

[dskidmore]

Is the phospate high in the tap water, or just your tank? With sky high pH and phosphates in the tap water, perhaps you need to consider mixing some purified water in with the tap. I saw some major improvements in a previous tank when I switched to RO/DI water. (My new tank is too big to get bottled water for, and I havn't picked up an RO/DI unit of my own yet.)

If the phosphate is normal in tap water, but high in your tank, then the fertilizers you are using are not properly balanced for the plants you have. You might switch to dry fertilizers and the estimative index method.

What is your nitrate reading?

CO2 gets difficult to measure with the use of pH stabilizers. Try this method to figure out how much CO2 is in your water. You might consider DIY CO2, a very cheap and effective solution.

 

[MarkP]

I'm newly returned to the hobby myself, but I perhaps can offer a very small amount of help. You say your jungle vals died within days? And you also mention you dose the entire Flourish line, does this include Excell?

If they "melted" away and you are dosing Excell, it is probably the Excell that killed it. I've not come across the reason why, but Excell is supposed to kill Vals and Anarachris, often even with the reduced dosing that is recommended.

You also mention a High phosphate level. After a few minutes on Yahoo and Jungle Labs website, I was unable to find a definate answer, but some PH adjusters contain phosphates. Perhaps testing tap water, treating it with some PH Adjuster, waiting a bit, and retesting during your next water change could tell you for sure if this is the source of your phosphates? There may also be some level of phosphates in you water supply.

However, in my experiance and based off what I have read, High Phosphate levels generally cause algae problems- I know that changes in what kind of algae was growing clued me into a high phosphate/low nitrate problem before I even tested nitrates. I was getting little brown or black puffballs of hair just starting on some of my plants, which immediately disappeared (along with the high phosphate levels) when I dosed some nitrate. If you are seeing little/no algae growth, it might be a problem with the test kit giving a false positive?

I probably wouldn't be able to do anything with the information, but I suspect the first expert-level person to come along will ask questions like what your exact nitrate level is, what plants died, and perhaps what they looked like as they died.

 

[fish_4_all]

First important question that I have seen is what type of test are you using? Test strips or a liquid test kit? If it is strips, get rid of them and get the liquid kits. I had test strips and my numbers were off by as much as 200%. Here is the one I have seen recomended most. Once you have a liquid kit if you don't already, test your tap water after it has sat out for 24 hours. Test your KH, GH, pH, Nitrates, nitrites, and phosphates.

Second, how often do you do a partial water change?

The next thing is you need to describe what is happening to the plants. The vals meted probably melted because of Excel but the others we need to know how they look, holes in the leaves, turning yellow. Try to answer as much of the sticky questions at the top of this forum as possible in order for us to give the best advice we can.

Someone should be able to help you once we have enough information to make a diagnosis.

FWIW, more CO2 could be a huge help as with your current numbers and what I know about CO2 readings, you only have 10ppm and need 30+ for a healthy tank at 3+ watts per gallon. Your CO2 numbers could be off from adjusting your pH but it still think it will help. If you can afford it, go pressurized, I wish I could and I only have 10 gallon tanks.

 

[gfink]

You didn't say how long you leave the lights on for, or what color bulb it is. (eg. 6500k)

Also, if your CO2 system isn't producing many bubbles, check the connections for leaks. I submerged mine underwater and saw leaks coming from all of my fittings.

 

[jerman]

PH adjusters with Phosphates

I'm with markP. I bet the PH adjusters you are using contain Phosphates. Seachem has a line of PH adjusters that dont use phosphates. I use Acid Buffer not acid regulator from seachem. It's the only one with no phosphates. ALso you might want to consider upgrading your CO2 generators to 2liter soda bottles. Thats what I have on my 45gal, and I still struggle to maintain high co2 production. I'm going to add a third CO2 reactor. Use lots of silicone to seal all junctions on your CO2 system. And check for leaks. Spray some water over the junctions and look for bubbles leaking out of the CO2 system. Also there are phosphate removers used in salt reef systems, some of them might work for fresh water. If the phosphates from your water supply are so high that they cant be managed you might have to get purified water or invest in a RO unit to remove them. Actually if they are that high you migh want to get a water purification system for the whole house. Phosphates that high cant be good.

 

[7Enigma]

Well I see 2 main questions your asking here:

1. Why are my plants dying (most important)

2. Why am I getting algae

I'll start with #2 first. Most likely you have too little CO2, and obviously have too much phosphate. These 2 things added to a good amount of light and you are just asking to have major algae problems (I'm actually surprised its not worse). Consider going pressurized, but for now I'd modify your Hagen system to use 2L soda bottles and make sure you follow the proper directions for acclimating yeast (please respond back if you are not sure).

Now for #1. It's already been mentioned that Excel can kill some plants. That could explain the vals. As for the rest of the plants, its not the CO2 level. While lack of CO2 will slow growth and cause algae problems, it will not kill plants. It's a severe limiting reagent and as such you will not see a CO2 "deficiency". It's true that algae covering leaves can cause damage/death of the plant, but it seems like you don't have a huge amount of problems with algae right now.

I don't know if the Flourish line has a specific iron additive, but if your just using the Comprehensive formula for your traces (including iron), I would suspect this could be causing your problems. Flourish has a pathetically low iron content, and unless you are dosing WAY more than recommended its quite possible you have an iron deficiency. I had an iron deficiency in my tank and while my java fern and wisteria looked fine (and my anubias although somewhat discolored also looked fine), the rest of the plants started to die off. You can google for symptoms of iron deficiency and see if your tank has those. The other almost guaranteed deficiency in the tank is potassium. Potassium is easily the most common deficiency in the tank because unlike CO2, nitrAte (from fish waste), and Magnesium (from tap water), it does not readily get replenished in the tank. In our higher light tanks you would need to add a LOT of that bottle of Flourish potassium to keep the levels acceptable (edit: just looked it up, for a 15ppm dose you would need to add 1/3 bottle per WEEK). Google for potassium deficiency as well for symptoms.


Finally I'd like to caution against using antibiotics when the fish look "stressed". Unless you are quite sure they have a disease that can be treated by antibiotics I would heavily caution against this. Please also note you have to do a full treatment (several days) or you risk creating antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria. Please also note this can kill/damage your biological filter causing your ammonia and nitrIte levels to rise (which would also cause a massive algae bloom especially due to your light level, high phosphates, and low CO2).

Hope this helps, and please don't take it as a personal attack. I just know what happens from here if you don't nip the problem right now.

justin