Neon Tetra Survival Rate

[madasafish]

Hi Guys,

I know, and have noticed, that little fish can be very sensitive to change. My experience with neon tetras has borne this observation out. Despite having cycled my tank properly, and having made sure that the pH and other fish were compatible with the neons, I found myself losing about 2/3 of the neons within the first week of purchase.

Some of you are cringing at that stat... Believe me, this made me feel like a murderer. But is this perhaps just a slightly extreme case of what other people have experienced?? I know that AlliV lost some Cardinals (more sensitive) recently after purchase, but have any other of you lost such an overwhelming number of small fish, and just not had the courage to mention it?

The remaining 5 neons have settled down nicely, and they've now survived about 3-4 weeks longer than the others. This is good news--obviously the tank conditions have settled, and the fish have lost any semblance of stress.

Well, this is a two-part post, I suppose. I wondered if there is any other preventative you can suggest for this problem. When I introduce new fish, I put them on a drip from my main tank, to acclimatize them slowly (air hose drips water into smaller container gradually over about 1-2 hours. I try to get the water temp about even, then add a dechlor/stress reducer, salt and some "cycle," and gently pour the fish into the tank. (This was before I QT-ed my fish, which I now do...)

Any comiserations and suggestions are appreciated!

Jonathan

 

[lmw80]

Ah, neon tetras. I love 'em! Yes, they are very sensitive fish to their surroundings. My personal experience with them is that everytime I buy a small school of them (4 or 5) at a time, (I have about 15) one would pass away by morning, and the rest would be fine. Odd that his has happened every single time, huh?

I get the fish from the store, float the bag in my tank for 5 minutes, add some of my tank water, and float for another five minutes. I then add the fish to the tank (I do not QT new fish and have yet to try the drip method, as my method has worked fine thus far). I do not add stress zyme at this point because I notice that the LFS adds A LOT to the water in that little bag.

I think actually, it may be the salt. I don't think (not 100% sure) that neon tetras have any tolerance for salt in the water. I have heard this to be true for cory catfish as well, which I also have, so I don't add salt to my water. Do you think that could be it?

 

[shawmutt]

I bought my cardinals in three batches of four each, I lost three in the first batch, but after losing them someone suggested I use the drip method of acclimation described in the salt water section here. I have used the method with all my fish and have not lost any due to shock. But the little fish are delicate--I didn't use a QT tank before introducing my hatchets, and ich wiped out the whole population. Additionally, my tank had been very well established before introducing the little buggers. I also used distilled or r/o water in my water changes, to avoid adding local contaminants to the tank.

 

[kdross]

I think actually, it may be the salt. I don't think (not 100% sure) that neon tetras have any tolerance for salt in the water.

Just fyi... I've got 4 neon tetras (had 5... 1 died the next day). When I setup my tank, I added one flat tablespoon of aquarium salt per 10 gallons. And when I do water changes, when I take 5 gallons out, 5 gallons that I put back have half a tablespoon added. (I, of course, don't add salt for the water I'm adding that is replacing evaporated water).

They seem to tolerate it very well. Granted, it's not much salt.

 

[Allivymar]

Just a FYI, but apparently neons are just as tetchy as the cardinals (I've read on some forums get cardinals, they are hardier then neons, and on other forums I read just the opposite...seems BOTH are horribly fragile).

For those interested, I threw a post onto fishgeeks.com a while back asking about the rumors and problems with cardinals. I got some very interesting answers: http://www.fishgeeks.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=15442

 

[madasafish]

Interesting!! Thanks all, and thanks AlliV for sending me over to the Fishgeeks thread. How is Fishgeeks? I don't want to betray AA, which I love, but I sometimes read through the topics here rather fast, and have time to burn (which I should be using to do school work...).

I realized after I posted that I hadn't added salt to the tetra bowls because I didn't have salt in the tank a couple of months ago (recently added it). So, thanks for the suggestion Lmw80, but it prob wasn't that (my bad).

Well, a big sigh of relief that I'm not the only tetra-killer in the US, but (as per the Fishgeeks thread) a sad sigh of despair that the Cardinal Tetra trade hasn't either stopped or that distributors haven't come up with a safer method of shipping.

AlliV, just so you know... One of my LFSs has cardinals fairly often. Their name is "Petqua," and though they're not on the net, they do have a phone #. If they're not planning on getting the cardinals in that week, they'll be more than happy to stock them for you. Phone # is (212) 865-7500. They are on Broadway between 98th and 99th streets. Hope this helps, if you're still considering getting more of the little guys!

 

[Allivymar]

LOL I don't consider frequenting other forums a betrayal; I see it more as a way to get as much info as possible. I belong to a TON of em. I have to say, my top 3 are here, www.wetwebmedia.com (those are the folks that make me look like I know NOTHING LOL talk about some major experience and knowledge!) and http://www.angelfish.net/yabbse/index.php (an angelfish specific forum and the best angelfish forum there is IMHO). Fishgeeks is sorta second string for me, mostly because theres a bit of flaming that goes on there (I guess some folks dunno how to respond without biting heads off). Is one reason this place is pretty much home to me; I have yet to see any topics here in freshwater become flame bait even tho I know we have some pretty passionate peeps in here

I'm hoping to be in the city sometime in the next month or so (not including our NY Aquarium trip if we can get it together); I'll give em a buzz because I am OBSESSED with having cardinals in this planted tank. I had to let go of the pygmy cories; no one has em and half the folks around here haven't heard of em *sigh* I settled for the otos instead, but I am NOT settling again LOL it HAS to be cardinals.

 

[crocodylus]

of 11 Neons i have bought in the last 6-7 weeks only one has died, they are kept on a fairly well planted tank with some mollies, ottos, cherry barbs, guppies, platies, coryes and one SAE (my other one died 2 days after i bought them and they are hard to find on the LFS here). They are fairly big now, about 1.5 inches, im hoping they will somehow pair up and multiply but I dont hold up much hope for that :?

 

[Allivymar]

Interesting croc; I notice you're WAY down south *grin* I wonder if the reason your guys are doing so well is because they come from different stock then the neon/cardinals which arrive on the east coast...and I'm jealous LOL

 

[crocodylus]

I think is the way the LFS keep their tanks. Most likely they just use the local tap water and some dechlorinators and thats it. Our water is very hard PH 7.4+, which for keeping neons is surprising since all the bibliography say they are a soft water species 8O go figure.

 

[AtodaJ]

I bought my possie of 10 Cardinals on 7/26/03 from my lfs. They have all done very well. In fact, I think they have grown quite a bit. They used to be so small but now they are almost as big as my fancy guppies! They appear to be pretty tough little dudes too... they like briefly chasing eachother from time to time... its very cute.

I think my success was mainly due to my lfs. They had 2 tanks full of Cardinals.... 1 was kept at a PH around 7.8 (tap water) while the other was kept at 7.1. My tank is at 7 so I got mine from the 7.1 tank. Other water parameters were also similar so acclimation was a breeze for them.

 

[madasafish]

How the heck did they survive at 7.8? That's about 1.6 too alkaline for them...!!! Wow, some LFSs really don't seem to care too much about pH!

I suppose there's no reason fixing something that ain't broke, but have you considered gradually bringing down the pH in your water? As far as I understand it, cardinals like VERY acidic water, i.e. 4.6-6.2! Here's a liveaquaria link on cardinals:

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=21&pCatId=895

 

[Spoon]

I hate to say it but I have probably added two dozen neons to my tank (not all at once of course) and there is one surviver. I moved to Rasbora and have had slightly better luck. I lost 6 of 6 after a week and I have 5 (started with 7) for several months now.

I almost thought it would be more humane to return the one neon to the LFS because they do so well in schools. But I thought it wouldn't be fair to streess the little guy out. For a couple of months he has been holding his own.

So, I am thinking of starting a small (<20gal) tank and trying to do just neons. They are awesome fish but I just can't keep them in my (45 gal) display tank.

 

[madasafish]

Urg. Sorry to hear it Spoon. How are your water parameters, what's your pH, and how were you introducing the neons to the tank? How quickly did they die?

 

[Spoon]

This was several months ago so I don't have numbers but my parameters were pretty good. My PH was always a little low (which I hear is good for neons). I think the one place I could have improved was in introducing the fish. I would usually just float the fish for 20-30 minutes and then I would let them roam free. Now I float them for 10-15 minutes and after the temp is stable I add 1/3-1/2 cup of my water into the bag every few minutes. Once I have 2-3 times more than what was in the bag originally, I let the fish swim out. I know that some people say to net them (and don't let the Fish store water get in the tank) but I am a little too lazy for that last step. I also don't want to stress the little guys out.

Now that the tank is stable. I will probably setup a smaller tank as a neon tank initially. I hope to move them to the main tank and then use the other tank as a QT tank. My main tank is in really good shape right now and I don't want anything to take it down.

 

[Spoon]

To answer the last question.

Some of them died in a day or two and some of them lasted as long as two weeks. It was usually a slow and steady process where I would expect to count 1 or 2 less every couple of days.

 

[madasafish]

Sounds very similar to what happened to me... I lost my 10 over the process of about 2 weeks. Really sad, and I still don't know what caused it. Does anybody have any further ideas?

 

[AtodaJ]

I suppose there's no reason fixing something that ain't broke, but have you considered gradually bringing down the pH in your water? As far as I understand it, cardinals like VERY acidic water, i.e. 4.6-6.2!

My tank is a community tank so 7 is where it will have to stay. I don't think the guppies would appreciate a PH of 4.6... hehe. The cardinals sure seem to be doing well and I think as long as I keep the PH steady they'll be fine.

 

[AtodaJ]

As for acclimation procedures I follow these:

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=19

This may be overkill but I figure if I'm getting a pet that will live for 4 years I can at least spend an hour making sure he acclimates and doesn't die within the first few weeks.

I hope you have better luck in the future.

 

[Allivymar]

I also acclimate my fishies AtodaJ not exactly the same way as in the article but similar. I match tank temps; I acclimate the fish to my tank's water parameters with small additions of tank water into the bag over an hour or so. All my fish have done wonderfully with this acclimation process.

The only fish I have had a problem with are the cardinal tetras; I don't think acclimation was the issue here. After doing some research it seems the north east coast suppliers of neons and cardinals have really crappy stock. If you read the link I posted previously, you'll see a number of lfs will not even purchase them from certain suppliers.

My guess, part of your wonderful success is related to the fact you are on the west coast, and are most likely getting fish from a different source.

Heh, and half my fish have MUCH longer life spans then 4 yrs; you better believe I try to do whats best for em...I figure they may outlive me LOL