In keeping with a tank that hasnt done cycling yet. Some water changes needed to get nitrite down.
You might want to consider cutting back on feeding. Only feed once every 2 days until things are more under control.
Last edited:
Newbie needs diagnosis
- Thread starter Navykop
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an interest in aquariums or fish keeping!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
You might want to consider cutting back on feeding. Only feed once every 2 days until things are more under control.
OP
OP
Navykop
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2023
- Messages
- 24
OP
OP
Navykop
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2023
- Messages
- 24
That’s a good idea Aiken, I’m going to implement that for a while I think… thank you!
OP
OP
Navykop
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2023
- Messages
- 24
It looks to me… and please do correct me if I’m wrong… that I have established a respectable colony of Nitrosomonas (or their analog) but only have a weak colony of Nitrobacter (or their analog)…..
To add to my previous comment about this point. It doesnt take a lot of ammonia to produce a lot of nitrite. 1ppm of ammonia produces 2.7ppm nitrite (and then 3.6ppm nitrate if you want complete numbers). Remember that your fish are producing ammonia all the time so nitrite will be going up between water changes. Could you test your tap water for ammonia. If your water is treated with chloramine rather than chlorine, chloramine is a source of ammonia and that ammonia will also be cycling to nitrite too.
Simple answer, yes thats correct. More complex answer, recent studies have shown that the specific bacteria you mention arent commonly found in aquariums. The bacteria you mention were identified in studies on water treatment (sewage) and it was assumed they were present in aquariums. It turns out this isnt normally the case as they only thrive in high ammonia concentrations which isnt the case in cycled aquariums where ammonia is so low as to be undetectable. So your usage of "their analog" is probably more correct. Turns out whats responsible isnt necessarily bacteria, so its better to not refer to specific bacteria or even say bacteria, and just use the term microbe as you really have no idea what specific microbes are present in your specific environment. As a point of interest one of the identified microbes consumes ammonia and produces nitrate skipping the nitrite stage entirely.
Last edited:
pauldadams1984
Aquarium Advice Activist
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2018
- Messages
- 108
It might be my eyes deceiving me but comparing the 2 images of the 2 sets of vials, there's slightly different water levels, especially on the ph and nitrates.
Just a small tip. Get an intravenous needle vial. (Remove the needle) The measuring vial on the needle makes it much easier when trying to get the correct amount of liquid into the testing vials.
Other than that, keep doing what you are doing. Mistakes happen but as long as you do your best to fix them, you're doing a good job.
Take it one step at a time. Once the cycle has done it's business, then worry about any stocking issues (as you may have some unfortunate casualties, you won't know what stock you'll have until you get through this stage).
Just a small tip. Get an intravenous needle vial. (Remove the needle) The measuring vial on the needle makes it much easier when trying to get the correct amount of liquid into the testing vials.
Other than that, keep doing what you are doing. Mistakes happen but as long as you do your best to fix them, you're doing a good job.
Take it one step at a time. Once the cycle has done it's business, then worry about any stocking issues (as you may have some unfortunate casualties, you won't know what stock you'll have until you get through this stage).
OP
OP
Navykop
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2023
- Messages
- 24
Seriously?! Wow ok. I find that quite fascinating. Makes me wonder what’s doing the work, so to speak….
Tap water is straight chlorine- but tested anyway and no trace ammonia…
This brings up a thought - if it may or may not be “bacteria” that is consuming the ammonia and/or nitrites, then I would think it is only logical to say that water changes *may/could* slow the cycle progress (I.e. living in the water column as well as in media/substrate). To this point, my father who has been keeping fish for decades swears by a monthly 30% water change and no more even if levels go wacky. He says that a good deal of the nitrifying “bacteria” do live in the water column and water changes reduces the numbers and slows the progress of cycling…. Never once in 40 years has he had any tank issues and his tanks are always stupidly beautiful - I don’t know…Just got me thinking….
I have learned a lot in the past month and should this all come crashing down around me, I think I’m better prepared to start properly next time. I’m so grateful to this forum!
As always - I thank you Aiken!
OP
OP
Navykop
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2023
- Messages
- 24
Thank you @pauladdams1984 !
The denitrifying bacteria/ microbes dont live in the water column. Even though they arent necessarily the specific bacteria you mention, they exist and function in pretty much same way. Water changes will remove negligible amounts of it.
The whole water changes/ no water changes debate is an entirely different topic with different views on each side. At this stage you arent cycled and the only way to keep water safe is to change dirty water for clean water.
A no water change approach is feasible but in my opinion you need to do things differently to go down that road. Low bioload to ensure there is low amounts of waste. Lots of plants to soak that waste up in lieu of water changes. Deep substates so you promote the growth of nitrifying bacteria that consume nitrate and produce nitrogen gas. If you tried to do a no water change/ low water change in a tank set up as most people tend to set up, what you end up with over time is a high nitrate, low pH environment. The nitrogen cycle can stop entirely and ammonia can start to build. Fish can tolerate a high nitrate environment if they are acclimatised to a gradual build up, but adding new fish that haven't had this gradual increase in nitrate can kill them. Or if you did a big water change in a high nitrate environment where the fish have acclimatised the sudden drop can kill them. Ammonia is much less toxic in acidic water, so if the nitrogen cycle stops functioning its less of an issue. But again do a water change, buffer the acidic water, raise the pH, the ammonia present becomes more toxic and kills your fish. This is called old tank syndrome.
If you want to look at no water changes/ low water change approach on of our members Caliban07 is good to reach out to. But i dont agree that its just a matter of not doing water changes, you need to set up things differently to make it successful and avoid old tank syndrome.
https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/members/caliban07-83540.html
The whole water changes/ no water changes debate is an entirely different topic with different views on each side. At this stage you arent cycled and the only way to keep water safe is to change dirty water for clean water.
A no water change approach is feasible but in my opinion you need to do things differently to go down that road. Low bioload to ensure there is low amounts of waste. Lots of plants to soak that waste up in lieu of water changes. Deep substates so you promote the growth of nitrifying bacteria that consume nitrate and produce nitrogen gas. If you tried to do a no water change/ low water change in a tank set up as most people tend to set up, what you end up with over time is a high nitrate, low pH environment. The nitrogen cycle can stop entirely and ammonia can start to build. Fish can tolerate a high nitrate environment if they are acclimatised to a gradual build up, but adding new fish that haven't had this gradual increase in nitrate can kill them. Or if you did a big water change in a high nitrate environment where the fish have acclimatised the sudden drop can kill them. Ammonia is much less toxic in acidic water, so if the nitrogen cycle stops functioning its less of an issue. But again do a water change, buffer the acidic water, raise the pH, the ammonia present becomes more toxic and kills your fish. This is called old tank syndrome.
If you want to look at no water changes/ low water change approach on of our members Caliban07 is good to reach out to. But i dont agree that its just a matter of not doing water changes, you need to set up things differently to make it successful and avoid old tank syndrome.
https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/members/caliban07-83540.html
pauldadams1984
Aquarium Advice Activist
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2018
- Messages
- 108
Just a few quick questions. I see you're using the tetra iq whisper 20.
What filter media have you used with it?
Have you been syphoning from (cleaning) the substrate when doing a water change?
What filter media have you used with it?
Have you been syphoning from (cleaning) the substrate when doing a water change?
OP
OP
Navykop
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2023
- Messages
- 24
Thanks Aiken for the awesome info - I will def continue with water changes - I was just thinking out loud ?
OP
OP
Navykop
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2023
- Messages
- 24
Filter media is the standard charcoal filter pocket (that it came with). I was thinking about adding purigen but I’m not there yet. Long way to go before I start changing up big things or experimenting…..
No, I have not vacuumed the substrate as I don’t want to disturb the biological building that’s going on there… not yet anyway….
Carbon and purigen have very similar and very limited purposes. They remove organic compounds from the water.
These organic compounds can be tannins from driftwood which cause tea like colour in the water, so carbon is often used in new tanks to get the water clear until the tannins have leached out. Organic compounds can cause odours so carbon is used to remove these odours. After a course of medication you want to remove the medication from the tank and carbon will do this. Some people will advocate running carbon permanently, if you do this it needs replacing every 2 to 4 weeks as it gets used up quickly, so it becomes expensive to keep it as a permanent part of your filtration and you probably don’t need it.
OP
OP
Navykop
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2023
- Messages
- 24
Wow - you should teach a course or write a book Aiken! Once again you’re hitting me with knowledge I didn’t even know existed….Thank you!
I think I’ll likely continue to run carbon until my new tank syndrome has passed and I’m cycling like normal. I just don’t want to make any major changes until I’m over this hill…. But you have given me something here to chew on!
pauldadams1984
Aquarium Advice Activist
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2018
- Messages
- 108
Yeah that's what I was checking with the substrate.
From what I have read about cartridge filters. The charcoal is what forces you to have to change the filter cartridge every 2-3weeks as they lose their use. Thus never really getting a consistent BB build up, although still keeping the water clean.
Sometimes it's very much worthwhile to add your own filter media with ceramic rings and cut to size coarse sponge instead.
Although, don't take my word for it. I would recommend doing some research about it. If you can find it specific to your filter aswell, that'll be perfect
I fully support this view.
Im by no means knowledgable about hang on back filters because we simply dont use then here in the UK. Ive never even seen one for sale in a store here (although ive never really looked either).
Ive looked at the manufacturers technical information and it appears the cartridge (item #2) is just a charcoal filter sandwiched in some filter floss. It doesnt appear to contain anything like zeolite that would absorb ammonia and starve your cycle, but you should check the packaging. The cartridge will be providing mechanical and chemical filtration and should be replaced periodically and doing so shouldn't cause too much issues with your cycle as it provides very little biological filtration. I however wouldn't change this until your cycle has established.
The biological filtration is provided by the bio-grid (item #3). Its very important not to replace or over clean this bio-grid. Just periodically rinse it in dechlorinated water if it looks like its getting sufficiently clogged to restrict water flow.
As suggested by pauldadams there are better and more economal ways to set up the filter than whats in the box, but doing so would mean starting over cycling your tank.
pauldadams1984
Aquarium Advice Activist
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2018
- Messages
- 108
Yeah looking at that diagram, it doesn't look like there's much depth to the compartments. So changing anything is likely to be more complicated than it's worth.
Especially as it looks like the bio pad is a fitting and has no manoeuvrability/flexibility
Especially as it looks like the bio pad is a fitting and has no manoeuvrability/flexibility
You could remove the cartridge and bio-mesh and stuff sponge and some bio-media in the now empty housing. Its a bit tight but ive seen people do similar in tight fitting filters. Even just a piece of sponge with no dedicated bio media would probably be an improvement. Maybe some sponge and pot scrubbers or K5 for biomedia could be stuffed in there.
Its not a terrible filter set up out of the box, at least you maintain your bio filtration when you change the cartridge. I just question how much bacteria that bio-mesh can support. The filter might be on the small side for a 20 gallon tank.
Its not a terrible filter set up out of the box, at least you maintain your bio filtration when you change the cartridge. I just question how much bacteria that bio-mesh can support. The filter might be on the small side for a 20 gallon tank.
OP
OP
Navykop
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2023
- Messages
- 24
Paul & Aiken,
Thank you both again for lending your wisdom…
I think the one thing I did right from the beginning is that I added some ceramic media meant for supporting bio… not sure why I did it, but at the time I thought it was a good idea. I’m glad I did!
I had placed the bio media in my filter (both pre filter floss location and in aftermarket baffles that are post filter floss) as well as sporadically throughout the substrate.
The filter set up is high up on my list of things I’d do differently if the opportunity presents itself!
Thank you both again!!
Thank you both again for lending your wisdom…
I think the one thing I did right from the beginning is that I added some ceramic media meant for supporting bio… not sure why I did it, but at the time I thought it was a good idea. I’m glad I did!
I had placed the bio media in my filter (both pre filter floss location and in aftermarket baffles that are post filter floss) as well as sporadically throughout the substrate.
The filter set up is high up on my list of things I’d do differently if the opportunity presents itself!
Thank you both again!!
pauldadams1984
Aquarium Advice Activist
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2018
- Messages
- 108
Ah cool. Hopefully that decision you made at the start helps you long term.
I did something similar. I had a big bag of extremely porous rock. Had loads left over after placing in the filter so spread some on the substrate. Whether it actually helps and builds BB outside the filter I am not sure (presumably will but not to the same extent due to lower water flow) it certainly won't do any harm.
I did something similar. I had a big bag of extremely porous rock. Had loads left over after placing in the filter so spread some on the substrate. Whether it actually helps and builds BB outside the filter I am not sure (presumably will but not to the same extent due to lower water flow) it certainly won't do any harm.
