Newbie

[Sasta24]

Hi all,
We’ve recently bout two oranda goldfish and they are in a 60 litre tank.
We had the tank set up one week before introducing them and so far everything seems ok. (5 weeks later)

The larger of the two (Spongebob) keeps chasing the smaller one after every feed and I’m not sure if he’s bullying the smaller one?

About a week and a half ago the small one (Patrick) was missing one of his scales.. this has now turned into a large spot? Hole? Is it nipping or something else?

 

[DrWho42]

aw! i hope they learn to get along

 

[Sasta24]

I moved some of the plants and ornaments around last Sunday and the bigger one (SB) seems less aggressive, but still pesters Patrick, I’m considering another tank if it carries on.

 

[Sasta24]

Good morning all,
Patrick still had a hole in his side and it’s now four times the size of the pic above.
I’ve been treating him for a week with Melafix and yesterday did a 25% water change.
I added some aquarium salt to the tank also.
The filter that came with the Ciano tank just isn’t cutting it, so yesterday I purchased a fluval U2 for the 58ltr tank and am running that along side the original so I don’t undo all the good bacteria - how long should I run them both please?

 

[Aiken Drum]

2 to 3 weeks. I would have got a bigger tank while i was upgrading. The 60 litres wont be big enough going forward as the fish get bigger. The small tank might be causing some of the aggression and wont be helping with maintaining good water parameters and your fishes healing process. How big are the fish?

After you remove the smaller filter, make sure to continue to monitor things and do water changes as necessary until you are sure the cycle is established. Taking out the filter will still remove beneficial bacteria, and may cause spikes. Running the 2 alongside each other will just minimise the risk.

 

[Sasta24]

Thank you for your reply, I will definitely be getting a bigger tank for these two but not from the local multi national pet store The one I have was recommended as a good size and now I know differently.. the fish are about 2-3” long in the body so are hopefully still toddlers.
I’m checking my peramiters every two three days at the mo, as I know it’s the water causing the ulcer, my partner says I’m going to lose him but I’m determined to keep him / them happy and healthy.

 

[Aiken Drum]

I think at 3 inches you are on the border of when to move them into a bigger tank. I definately wouldnt leave it too much longer. 120 litre minimum, 160 litre would be good, 200 litre ideal. With a filter rated for double the aquarium capacity. A canister would be a good idea.

Im not really a medication expert, but melafix wont really do much, but better than nothing. Its a preventative more than a treatment. Problem here in the UK is that the effective treatments are vets prescription only, and good luck finding a vet who does fish treatment.

Something like esha 2000 is a bit more effective, ive never had it cause any cycle issues, ive been successful treating minor skin issues with it, and is readily available depending on what stores you have near you. Pets at home and maidenhead aquatics don't stock it, but independent fish stores often do. There is online. Maidenhead have a broader selection of treatments than pets at home if you can find one open (they tend to be in garden centres which are still closed). They will have treatments better than melafix, although brands i have no experience of.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Also, just to make sure. If you are treating with medication, make sure to remove any carbon from the filter as the carbon will remove the medication before it has chance to work.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Also, if the multi national pet store you refer to is pets at home, they stock fluval tanks and equipment at good prices. I use fluval, they are good quality. Dont discount them because they are a national brand, they sell good equipment and consumables at good prices. Its just the in store advice that is lacking.

 

[Sasta24]

Aiken, thank you so much for all your advice and help, I did wonder why it said to remove the bio media.
Will update again at the end of April ??

 

[Aiken Drum]

Carbon isnt biomedia. Edit: Well it is because it has surface area, but its primary use isnt biomedia.

Mechanical media. This removes particles from the water. Sponge is mechanical media.

Biomedia. This is where the beneficial bacteria that processes out ammonia and nitrite into safer nitrate lives. This is usually the ceramic rings, but sponge is also good bio media. Anything that has surface area can be used as bio media. Plastic pot scrubbers are often used and are considered one of the best and most cost effective biomedias you can use. Biohome, matrix, K1 are other types of biomedia.

Chemical media. This removes impurities from the water, like medication, or tannins that colour the water. Activated carbon or purigen are common chemical media. There are also chemical media that claim to remove ammonia and nitrate. Chemical media only lasts a few weeks before needing replacement, its expensive. You should only use it for specific purposes, when its no longer needed, stop using it. Take out any carbon while you are medicating, put it back in when the medication course has ended, take it out again when the medication has been removed.

 

[Sasta24]

So much to get my head around. Thank you for the advice.

 

[Sasta24]

Rip Patrick

After two weeks of treating with melafix and also installing a u2 in my tank alongside the original filter Patrick has passed to the other side.
Ammonia at 3 this morning, I’ve done a quick 30% water change and will check it again this afternoon.
Feeling sad ? hope spongebob continues to be strong and ok.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Sorry to hear about that.

What are your other water parameters? If ammonia is at 3ppm that is dangerously high. A 30% water change wont be enough. You need to get your ammonia + nitrite combined below 0.5ppm. Do 50% water changes daily until you are there.

It looks like you still arent cycled.

 

[Sasta24]

Tested

Sorry to hear about that.

What are your other water parameters? If ammonia is at 3ppm that is dangerously high. A 30% water change wont be enough. You need to get your ammonia + nitrite combined below 0.5ppm. Do 50% water changes daily until you are there.

It looks like you still arent cycled.

Hi Aiken,

Thank you for your reply. Funny thing is all the other parameters are ok.
Just dipped the test strip in and all are reading fine.

 

[Aiken Drum]

I cant tell if the nitrate is 0 or 10? Probably somewhere in between. What has your ammonia been like in the past? Have you seen much nitrate in your previous tests? What has been your water change schedule? Are you aware of the nitrogen cycle and how to cycle a tank?

In brief, the nitrogen cycle is the process where bacteria breaks down ammonia into nitrite which is also harmful and then into nitrate which is much less harmful. In a cycled tank you should be seeing 0ppm ammonia and nitrite and you should be seeing some nitrate as that is the end product and normally cant be cycled out. You remove nitrate through water changes.

Your low nitrate could be a sign of not being cycled or large, regular water changes. Your ammonia is a sign of not being cycled, but could have been caused by the dead fish decomposing and causing a temporary spike. I suspect your fishes illness will have been caused by living in an uncycled tank. Ammonia poisoning takes a few weeks to start showing up as ill health, so the timescales seem right.

The 2 main ways of cycling a tank is "fish in" or "fishless". This is something most pet stores wont tell you about.

Fish in, you test daily, and change water sufficiently to keep the water safe until your filter develops enough bacteria to process the waste. Then you can do water changes to control nitrate, typically 25 to 50% change every week or 2 depending on how heavily stocked you are.

Fishless you dose ammonia to artificially create waste, and keep dosing until your filter develops enough bacteria to process the waste. You then add fish into an already cycled tank and water changes as above to control nitrate.

Either way can take a couple of months, sometimes more.

Liquid test kits (eg API master test kit), are more accurate than strips, certainly easier to read, and as you get 100s of tests from a test kit are much more cost effective long run.

 

[Sasta24]

The nitrate has only started to increase gradually over the past two weeks, it’s like a really pale blush pink so not quite at 10 yet. The tank was Not cycled before the fish went in and I think Patrick just wasn’t strong enough. I was hoping the other filter would have helped him out.
Ive been doing 25% water changes weekly and all ph levels etc have looked ok. It was only when Patrick got the hole I went to buy some ammonia test strips and realised that was the issue.
Ammonia is hovering at around 1 after a quick test.

 

[Aiken Drum]

More filtration doesn't equate to a cycled tank. All it gives you is 2 uncycled filters. When cycled more filtration will support more bioload, but you also need water volume to go along with it or you are forever changing water to remove nitrate and bigger fish need space to grow properly and have territory. Thus 60 litres isnt enough water volume for goldfish as they get larger.

For the benefit of your remaining fish i would try and get your ammonia down. Aim to get your ammonia + nitrite below 0.5ppm. 25% weekly water changes isnt enough in an uncycled tank. You might need to do that daily.

Seeing nitrate is a good sign. Your cycle is establishing.

 

[Sasta24]

I shall do the 25% water change daily until the levels are below 0.5ppm and then probably every time it starts to rise. Thanks for your help.