Not sure if ICH or fungus

[neilzomg]

So i started a coldwater goldfish tank for my hallway, had it running for a few days without any fish in it and came home and my girlfriend had 5 goldfish stocked in it by the time i came home from work. By the next day they were all looking very down and ill, so i didn't take them back to the store where she got them.

They were sitting at the bottom of the tank, sleeping on plants and even on top of the filter, flicking occasionally and also not touching their food.

Two of the fish passed away on sunday night before i got home from work and since yesterday i noticed white spots all over the fish. I've started treating for ICH as of yesterday morning and their health has seemed to improve... swimming around more, they've started to eat again.

But i;ve noticed on my fantail that the tail is showing signs of rot it's almost like their are fine fibres left at the edge of the tail.

Any advice i really don't want to loose any of these fish!

 

[neilzomg]

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=273809&stc=1&d=1434445346

 

[coralbandit]

First welcome!
Being new I think the tank/filter need to cycle.
This could take weeks with fish in the tank and need many waterchanges.
My guess is the issue is water quality orientated.
Do you have test kit to check ;ammonia,nitrite and nitrate?
If not I would just start 50% water changes every day until you have test or get water tested.


http://www.aquariumadvice.com/fishin-cycling-step-dark-side/

 

[neilzomg]

Tested yesterday, but will test again later yesterdays results-

Amonia 0.25
nitrite 0
nitrate 0

 

[neilzomg]

So i've re done the test.

Amonia is looking around 0.25ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 0ppm

Water quality seems to be fine, I'll just have to wait a few days and continue the treatment to see how it goes...

i'm pretty sure it is Ich, but as i said the end of one of the fishes tail seems to be rotting too.

 

[coralbandit]

Well done with the test!
What are you using for the ich?
I am a kordon rid ich plus guy.
There are many ways to kill ich but you have to kill it.
First lets try to make sure it is ich.
Does it look like salt grains on the fish?
Here is the best link IMO on ich.
Ich | The Skeptical Aquarist
Know the enemy!
You have to kill ich!
Don't let it fool you when it falls off your fish to multiply.
Read the link as it will offer many points I am sure I missed!
Keep us informed.

Keep testing the water daily also as your tank being new is NOT cycled yet and you should see an ammonia spike soon possibly followed later(a week or so) by a nitrite spike.
Both are dangerous for fish and need your attention to make water changes when either get to 1ppm.
Good luck!

 

[neilzomg]

Indeed they do, there are bubbles behind the fish in the photo at the back of the tank, but you can see all of the spots clear as day on the fish.

I'm using API white spot treatment currently as it was recommended by my local fish store since yesterday.

 

[neilzomg]

Keep testing the water daily also as your tank being new is NOT cycled yet and you should see an ammonia spike soon possibly followed later(a week or so) by a nitrite spike.
Both are dangerous for fish and need your attention to make water changes when either get to 1ppm.
Good luck!

Yesterday the amonia was 0.25 or 0.50ppm and the nitrite was 5.0ppm

I used some ammolock after i did a 50% water change and it hasn't spiked again so i'll just keep an eye on it every day incase anything changes

 

[Matt68005]

I would go to walmart and get parasite clear. It contains acriflavine and malachite green. Also they probably could use an antibiotic. Petsmart has some. Maracyn-2 or Triple sulfa are the ones to go for. You can combine maracyn-1 and Erythomycin as well. Killing the ick is great, but if you don't kill the bacterial infection, their probably gonna get septic and die soon.....
and DO NOT raise the temperature to kill ick when a fish has a bacterial infection which i can tell by their tails.

 

[Matt68005]

This is actually what i use. Good, cheap, antibiotic. you could treat with an alyhede for ick while you wait for it to come in the mail, then feed them this for 7-10 days. Ken's Premium Sinking Pellets with Oxytetracycline 2.5mm

 

[coralbandit]

Indeed they do, there are bubbles behind the fish in the photo at the back of the tank, but you can see all of the spots clear as day on the fish.

I'm using API white spot treatment currently as it was recommended by my local fish store since yesterday.

What are the active ingredients in the API?
Malachite green and formalin are one of the most effective combo of meds for ich.
The bacterial infection? may be a secondary infection(to the ich) and clear up with the resolution of the ich or the tank cycling completely.
Be careful with nitrites going over 1ppm as they are known to be more deadly to fish then ammonia.
Salt helps fish deal with nitrite poisoning and my work on the ich also.
I am not the salt guy but search "brown blood disease" and you will see th real benefit in this application.
Good move adding the material from other tank.

 

[neilzomg]

I'll just head down to the fish store tomorrow and see what they have as i don't like waiting for stuff to come in the mail :L and i'd rather shop in my local stores!

The API has Malachtite green and PVP

Not sure if i can use a medication to combat the fin rotting

 

[coralbandit]

I haven't found what PVP is yet,but the MG is all good.
Found this on the other issue;
How Ich Kills:

The general thought as to how ich kills fish is the epithelium (the top layer of the gill cells) reacts to an Ich invasion by growing thicker, the result of this is a restriction of the oxygen flow from the water to the blood in the gills. The lamellae (respiratory folds of the gills) also become deformed, reducing the proper transfer of oxygen.
The shear numbers of Ich trophozoites covering the gills will also cause a mechanical blockage of successful oxygen transfer. These conditions combine to stress the fish by hindering respiration.

The epithelial layer of the gill may also separate and cause loss of ESSENTIAL electrolytes, nutrients and fluids from the fish, making it difficult for the infected fish to regulate the water concentration in its body. Bacteria and fungus may also invade the fish more easily while it is stressed from the Ich infection.
References:
*Fungus (Saprolegnia) in Fish
*Aquarium Chemistry; Electrolytes
Taken from;
Aquarium Ich Disease | Ichthyophthirius Multifilis & Cryptocaryon
Vacuum every day or every other at least as the ichs fall from fish and land in substrate where they multiply.
Vacuuming helps to physically remove them and allows the meds to work better.
I didn't like the directions on the API!
Treat for 5-7 days at least AFTER you see the last white spot.

 

[neilzomg]

What do you mean treat for 5-7 days? as in only treat the water when there are no spots for 5-7 days or immediently?

And by that do you mean add the doeses every day.

 

[coralbandit]

Add the med as stated(every other day ) to be safe.
When you vacuum you will need to replace the med for the amount of water removed and then possibly re dose if it is day 2.
I dose every day if I am treating for ich with the kordon.
Although no way to say on the formalin
IMO when the color of the MG is gone so is it!
I have dosed full dose on my 180g everyday for 5-7 days straight without problem,but every tank is different so carefully explore your dosing strategy.
I am not recommending this merely siting my experience.
Treat now and start the clock on 5-7 days when you see no more spots.
Read the link it really is LOADED with the info I am trying to share.
Ich is easy to kill,but it can also easily fool an new keeper.
KILL IT!
The ich itself can ONLY be killed while it is OFF the fish!
When it is on the fish it is under the skin and not effected by the med which is why you need to keep the strength of the med up to full.

 

[neilzomg]

When i dose the tank at the start anyway the whole tank goes blue due to the dye, but withing a few hours its gone completely. Is the meds being removed by the filter as far as i'm aware i don't have a carbon filter.

 

[coralbandit]

Without carbon or water changes I can not confirm removal of med,
BUT exposure to light , organic waste, and O2 are known to degrade many meds(especially dye based).
I really can't say about the formalin (which is formaldehyde with a fancy name),but I have long thought that once the color from any dye based med is gone so is the Proper strength of the med to perform effectively .
I haven't killed a fish with MG or MB(methylene Blue) in this century!
Please remember to vacuum every day as this forces the addition of fresh water along with removing the ichs and residual ,and active meds.
Fish can never have to much fresh water.

Sometimes by the time the issue is recognized and dealt with the med can be "the straw that breaks the camels back".

 

[neilzomg]

I will take all the info on board and see how the treatment goes. I will give it until the end of the week and report back on the progress

 

[neilzomg]

Couldn't wait til the end of the week to post an update as things are getting worse. Took this picture to my local store as well and was told due to the savarity of the white spot they doubt the fish will make it. Here's the picture if anyone else can take a look at it. The spots don't even really seem to be all seperate most on the tails etc seem to be forming together.

 

[coralbandit]

The life cycle of ich is slower(longer) in cool(unheated ) tanks.
Keep up on water changes and adding meds.
They are still on the body so they are growing and not being killed,as quick as they are multiplying.