Options to get rid of BBA

[fish_4_all]

Ok, this topic has been beaten to death but I am asking a new twist to this because I am sick of it and I won't be able to afford pressurized until I find it on the side of the road.

Here is the question:
What do I have to do to my tanks in order to get rid of the BBA without increasing my CO2? Lower light? Less dosing? Slower growing plants? Faster growing plants? 3-5 SAE in each tank? Dose Excel until the BBA is gone and then keep at that dosing level? Stop dosing EI and dose bare minimums? Blackout my tanks once every other week? Remove the CO2? Will any combination of these help to get rid of it? What has to be done with the tanks that can be done with what I have? I also don't care about any other algae because between the BN and the ottos and soon to have SAE it won't have a chance.

This is the last gasp at a solution that doesn't require an investment that is more than I have paid for all of the stuff I have for my aquariums combined.

 

[Purrbox]

CO2 is key to getting rid of BBA. You either need to get your CO2 levels above 30ppm or stop injecting it. It is possible to get CO2 levels consistantly above 30ppm with DIY it just takes some work. It's the fluctuating CO2 levels below 30ppm that really encourage the BBA. If you decide to get rid of the CO2 all together you'll also need to get your lighting under medium and dose your ferts appropriately to the new lighting level. If you were growing some high light plants these probably will end up needing to be replaced.

 

[fish_4_all]

Ok, how do I keep my CO2 levels constant? My normal numbers are pH 6.6 and KH of 7-8.
They swing to pH 6.8 and KH 5-6 with water changes. I agree that is comes on with fluctuation also, I know when I change out my bottles it can grow 3 inches in a matter of hours!

Let me guess this first, quality check valves and a powerhead reactor maybe? I know how to get it there but preventing fluctuations with DIY seems almost impossible. Can I add excel to my water that I am adding to the tank to prevent the swing long enough to prevent and retard BBA?

I just hate to go back to a simple slow growing tank and all the frustration just because I get BBA when growing conditions are prime for plants and they grow so well. There has to be a way.

I also saw one source that said water changes are bad when fighting BBA. Could I change less water more often?

Better yet, how do you prevent the drops in CO2 ppm in pressurized tanks? The KH still drops and potentially low enough to go below 30ppm. What is the main difference between the two and maitaining proper levels of CO2?

 

[Purrbox]

You don't have to acheive consistant levels of CO2, just need to make sure that it stays above 30ppm with the fluctuations. So this could be using a different CO2 mix, more bottles, better reactor, more frequent mix changes, or a combination of the former options. Definately a good idea to use at least two bottles so that you can alternate when you change the mix and minimize the fluctuations in levels.

With Pressurized CO2 you are able to inject a constant amount of CO2 which results in a fairly constant CO2 level in the tank. There will be some fluctuation due to plant usage but still fairly constant. Not sure why the KH would be dropping, but if the CO2 is constant the KH and pH will drop together. With DIY CO2 on the other hand you have an initial spike of CO2 output with a fresh mix which will then slowly decrease over a period of time. This means that the amount of CO2 being injected with DIY CO2 is constantly changing, which is why you see CO2 fluctuation and why BBA is so common with DIY CO2.

 

[fish_4_all]

Now that finally makes sense instead of more CO2, more CO2 and more CO2.

To be honest I don't know why the numbers changed like they did. (In means tank water and out means taken out and sat for at least 10 hours.) Will test again and post out of tank results from the same water tomorrow.

These are my reading over the past 2 weeks. I know, there is a truely odd change but I think it because my CO2 is really not working well as it has gotten colder. The bottles are each less than 2 weeks old with one of each set of two is less than 4 days old. Two 2 liter bottles in each setup. I think I need new yeast also.

Target is simply 30ppm or higher. I used to have it and still have problems but is most likely from fluctuations below that like you said.

Does it take very long below 30ppm to allow it to take hold and become hard to get rid of? How long do you need to keep the levels of CO2 that high before it goes away?

 

[wobbles]

I also have a problem with bba. I have a pressurised co2 system. What level of co2 should I be aiming for? Keep in mind I have discus. My ph is 6.6, and kh 4.0. 3.8 wpg.

 

[Steve Hampton]

I think I've found the source that is causing your KH test kit interference...how long have you been adding calcium citrate? Citrate will skew your KH test kit into reporting more KH than you really have...thus with a falsely higher KH your CO2 levels erroneously seem higher too. Calcium citrate is not a good option for increasing calcium, and its an especially bad choice if injecting CO2. Calcium chloride is IMO the best choice for most situations as it is easier to dissolve as compared to either calcium carbonate or calcium sulfate. People get concerned about the "chloride"...chloride is very different from chlorine. Chloride is beneficial in that it offers some protection against nitrite for fish but more importantly think of chloride in this fashion. Common dechlorinators active ingredient is sodium thiosulphate. The reaction that renders chlorine safe when using sodium sulfate is as follows:

Note that what remains is basically table salt, sodium chloride. Or in truly simple terms chlorine becomes chloride. Many planted tank enthusiasts have added potassium chloride as the way of adding potassium. For many years I added gobs of potassium chloride without problems associated with doing so. I do add less now days but not because of a problem that was generated but rather due to finding the need for the higher amounts wasn't warranted. The point is that levels as high as 100ppm have not caused problems for freshwater fish or plants, though beyond that could be pushing it toward brine. But, doing 50% weekly water changes sets the maximum concentration at twice the dosed amount so adding 20ppm per week could only build up to 40ppm maximum.

You can order calcium chloride from Greg Watson

http://www.gregwatson.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CalciumChloride

In most areas its commonly available as pool supply stores.

 

[Purrbox]

That's some great information on the Calcium Citrate. That definately goes a long way to explaining the difference between the tank water and the tap water, and why fish_4_all's KH has been varying so much.

It takes very little for the BBA to get started in a tank and as long as conditions are prime for BBA it will continue to spread with increasing speed. Once you get your tank to the point where you've fixed the problem, the BBA will stop spreading and you will need to decide how to get rid of the existing BBA as it usually doesn't go away on it's own. You can use a spot treatment of Flourish Excel to kill it or simply remove the affected leaves. If you do use Flourish Excel to spot treat the BBA, you'll still want to remove any leaves that are damaged as they are unlikely to recover and will slow down the overall plant recovery. Once you beat BBA you'll find that dealing with other algae doesn't seem anywhere near as hard to deal with.

 

[fish_4_all]

My KH was about the same before but the calcium citrate could easily be messing with this and making my CO2 injection ineffective. I have only been adding it for 3 weeks to 1 month.

I also think there is a chance that my AquaSafe is doing the same thing and could be the reason my KH is so high even before the Calcium citrate. I am planning on getting Prime, Excel and Calcium chloride to see if that help me get a hold on things. Removing the leaves is easy once it is slowed and I think my snails and Otos chew on it so it wouldn't last long there after.

So I stop using the Calcium citrate when I get calcium from Gregs, only source I have because locally they only carry calcium carbonate and calcium citrate. Slowly reset my tank to get my Kh measureable again and then test the tanks to make sure I still don't have a false KH problem.

If my Kh has been measuring high for so long without adding anything, how do I get my Kh levels up high enough that I actually have descent CO2 levels in my tanks? Calcium carbonate? The point is, how do I get my CO2 levels where they need to be? Will a simple reactor be all I need to do? Something better than the AC HOB like a powerhead with CO2 directly into it or an inline one with a powerhead running it? I need to do this anyway because the CO2 into my AC is just creating a mess of slime that I believe is directly related to trapped bubbles in the sponges and something growing in the CO2 rich environment.

It has been detremined that my Kh is already about 3-4 degrees because of Shells and crushed coral that is in my LFS gravel. I know it won't last forever but I have crushed coral for when and if I need to add it. Maybe it has been used up already and is causing the algae problems.

Newest readings for today. Not what I was hoping for. If there was nothing affecting my KH, what should my numbers be after 24 hours of sitting out? All of these reading are using Calcium citrate.

Wobbles, with pressurized it should be as easy as turning it up.

 

[7Enigma]

Steve very interesting info about the citrate. Glad I read this as I was going to switch from my calcium chloride to calcium citrate in my 10 gallon QT tank where I'll be breeding snails (salt and snails are never a good mix using my little knowledge as a stupid child with slugs....). I will still probably use the citrate in that tank, but could have easily seen using it in my main tank to keep salt levels down...

fish_4_all,

Getting rid of BBA is relatively easy. Keeping it away, is a whole other story. I did a 5% bleach dip for 2minutes on my java fern, plant was fine, BBA turned white, and was later eaten/died off. I also spot treated with 3% hydrogen peroxide, left it in place for 30seconds and then diluted it in the tank by turning the PH an filter back on. This was done both to my anubias and my java fern. Both resulted in successfully killing the BBA in that area without damaging the plants/fish/snails/biofilter/etc. I would recommend if going for a chemical kill (which I recommend as it is slow to disappear on its own with DIY), if you can easily remove the plant from the tank go the bleach method. It's much less work, your guaranteed to get all of the BBA on the plant, and seems to be more harsh to the BBA as well (I also feel its less damaging to the plant tissue). If you cannot remove the plant (like my anubias and java fern) then spot treatment with peroxide works well, you just need to make sure you get all of the areas, while also staying at or below 1oz of peroxide per 10gallons of tank water for the rest of the tanks health.

I had quite a long post that was locked a bit ago chronicling my and others experiences using these chemicals to kill BBA and staghorn algae, you can search for it in the planted section. I have been torn between posting my final results with pictures, or just forgetting about it and keeping the results to myself and others that I PM'd due to the reaction of the topic.

If you want to try these methods and have specific questions feel free to PM me.

HTH

 

[Zezmo]

Always, the right thing to do is get your tank under control and correct the cause of algae to begin with (CO2). That said, squirting excel directly on the BBA to kill it, and then supplementing your tank with Excel regularly will also control the BBA quite effectively. You can make up for your unstable CO2 with Excel.

Wobbles, I keep Discus in my main tank. They are fine with Excel, and mist method of CO2. As others have said, keep your CO2 above 30ppm. Also, for BBA, make sure there is lots of circulation. Your tank can have good CO2 overall, but dead spot in the current can become CO2/nutrient depleted and allow BBA to take hold in those areas.

FWIW, I let my main tank go a bit in late August/ early September. I had a breakout of several algaes because of this; lots of BBA, Green Hair(slime), Clado, Stag, and even a little BGA. 3 weeks ago, I decided to clean up the tank. I pulled all the driftwood and using a bucket rinsed them in straight excel. This was to kill BBA. I removed any plants/leaves that had algae. Mind you, because of some plants (eriocaulons) being delicate and expensive I could not remove or clean them. I also put my 3 SAE's in this tank. 3 weeks later, keeping my EI routine and cranking the CO2 mist, there is hardly even a spec of visible algae in this tank. I also cut the light to 10 hours a day which does not really seem to hurt plant growth/health at all. If for some reason you can't raise or stabilize the CO2. Then Excel is a very reasonable stopgap to help get things under control.

Here is the Algae at it peak, on 9/5/06
http://webpages.charter.net/zezmo/72-algae-1.jpg

Here is 2 weeks later on 9/22/06 after the cleanup.
http://www.wgwguild.com/images/fish/72-spraybars.jpg

And this is a shot from today, 10/1/06. I was out of town all week, so the tank went 5 days with no ferts or maintenance. Even with that the algae is gone.
http://webpages.charter.net/zezmo/72-noalgae-1.jpg

 

[fish_4_all]

I will have to try a couple things to get my CO2 back up where it belongs. The first will be the spray with the Powerhead. Is just really odd that it started here in the past month to month and a half. I guess it is from the ambitious growth and not keeping up with the tanks and the circulation. 1/2 depletes the CO2 as fast as I can oput it in and the rest gives me odd readings.

BTW, 29 Sept is the first time I mixed the tank completely as much as I possibly could to do the pH and KH test. Made a huge difference didn't huh. Might be a good one to put in a sticky in the proper precedure to use when testing a heavily planted tank. I took reading today, one in the outflow of the HOB and one in the far side with the plants and what a difference.
HOB outflow: pH 6.6, KH 10
Heavily planted area: pH 7.0, KH 7-8

Oh, and the BBA is only where the outflow of the HOB doesn't get to and mostly on shaded parts of the plants.

No wonder my BN like the play in the plants more than in the outflow of the HOB and they like the airstone when I turn it on. The pH is higher like they like it and the CO2 levels are much lower. I need to get them into a tank without CO2 injection.

 

[fish_4_all]

BBA had been reduced to almost nothing. The only things I did was to remove the wisteria from the tank and to start dosing PO4 only once a week instead of 3. As you can see from the charts, my reading are pretty much the same so i am thinking it either one or a combination of both. Too much PO4, the wisteria taking up too much of the CO2, wisteria eating nutrients and causing high levels of PO4 or some combination there of. Thankfully it is now under control and hopefully my fish and snails will finish it off as they seem to be eating it slowly but surely.