oranda living on bottom, sluggish but hungry

[eatinglightning]

please help! my beloved oranda is sick and i don't know what to do.

he (i don't know if he is a he btw) lived his whole life in a one-gallon tank with a little bubbler; about six weeks ago, i got him a new three-gallon tank, which doesn't appear to make bubbles but has a filtration system called the bio-wheel (i will look up more when i get home). i followed the instructions, filling the tank, waiting a full 24 hours to put him in. the water clouded up after a couple days; i had read that this was normal. then everything seemed fine. so fine i stupidly didn't change his water.

after he had been living there about three weeks, i noticed him spending more time than usual floating in an upper corner of the tank, instead of swimming or drifting about. this went on for a couple days, and he ate less than usual. on about the third day, i came home to find him in the middle of the tank. this seemed bad. i set out water so i could give him a full change the next day.

the next day, he was on the bottom of the tank. i read that it might be his swim bladder, so i didn't feed him for 3 days, and he pooped a lot, but looked unhappy. at some point, i did a full water change, and got him a new filter too (not sure at what point i did this). then i started feeding him mashed skinned peas. he still looked bummed.

when he looked no better after a couple days, i got him maracyn 2, as i had read that bacterial infections can mess up a swim bladder. i followed the instructions and he definitely perked up, but still can't make it farther than mid-tank and always sinks right back down. when i finished the course, i let him go a day without, and he got more lethargic right away. i read on the package that you could give the fish a second course of marcyn 2 if the first one didn't work, so i did a full water change, and then started him on that again. he perked up a bit but not much.

today was the last day of the second course of antibiotics. i am at wit's end. i have been feeding him skinned peas this whole time, and he is always stoked to see them and eats well; tonight i am going to find him some real food that floats to the bottom, but i don't know what else to do: i can't do the antibiotic powder again, and i am going home for christmas in a couple weeks and don't wanna leave him like this with the 7-day vacation feeder. is there something else that could be wrong with him? he still looks spectacular, great color, no shaggy parts.

i answered all the questions below to the best of my knowledge at present. i will research more about the filter and food when i get home, but any advice would be greatly appreciated. though i am writing fairly generically about him here, i love him like crazy and would be devastated to lose him.

-p

1~What type of fish is afflicted? In addition, please describe what is wrong with the fish to the best of your ability (i.e. cotton like growth, bloated, etc.).

oranda. looks great, eats the skinned, mashed peas that float down to it, but occasionally lies sideways, can't reach top of tank swimming. has been this way for two weeks

2~What are your tank parameters (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, temp, pH)? Please give exact values.

i am ashamed to say i don't know this.

3~ How large is the tank? How long has the tank been set up?

3 gallons. has been set up for about six weeks; fish previously lived in 1-gallon tank, became ill about 3-4 weeks into living in new tank

4~What type of filtration are you using? Please give the name and number (i.e. Fluval 304) and amount of gph if known.

gulp. i will look up when i get home; it came with the tank and involves something called the "bio-wheel"

5~How many fish are in the tank? What kinds of fish are they and what are their current sizes?

1 fish, about 4 inches including tail

6~When is the last time you did a water change and vacuum the gravel?

last week

How often do you do this? How much water do you remove at a time?

i had not changed the water since installing him in the new tank; when fish got ill, i did whole water change, changed again 1 week later

7~How long have you had the fish? If the fish is new, how did you acclimate it/them?

i have had the fish about 3 years. when i moved it into the new tank, i rinsed out the new tank and all the rocks and fake plants that were to go in it; i let the water stand with the little bio-wheel running for 24 hours; then i took fish out of his old tank with a little net and dropped him in.

8~Have you added anything new to the tank--decor, new dechlorinator, new substrate, etc.?

no

9~What kind of food have you been feeding your fish, have you changed their diet recently?

i will look at the bottle when i get home; it is little red balls that float on top of the water; he has been eating the same food for three years. after he got sick, i started mashing up green peas and giving him those.

 

[jsoong]

First, I would suggest you go to the articles section & read this on the nitrogen cycle:
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/articles/articles/24/1/Nitrogen-Cycle-/Page1.html

What I think happened is that when you moved tank, you did not move the bacteria from the old tank to the new. You new tank is now cycling & the toxic ammonia/nitrites are building up & causing you grief.

Although swimbladder dysfunction may be due to bacteria infection, it is far more likely to be from bad water conditions. Adding the antibiotics might actually worsen things because that will kill off your filter bacteria, putting you back to square one in the cycling process.

The first thing you need to do is to test the water for ammonia & nitrites. You will need a liquid test kit (don't rely on the paper stripes). If that is impossible, I would suggest doing 40% water changes *daily* for the next while. <Note that you should temp match the water & use a dechlorinator -- setting out the water overnight only works for chlorine ... most cities use chloramines as the disinfectant & you don't want that in your tank ... at least when doing big water changes.>

I would suspect that the fish will perk up with just water changes. Give that a few days & see what happens. Optionally, you may add aquarium salt, at the rate of 0.1%. This is 2 teaspoons in your tank. Note that is you add salt, you would need to add an appropriate amount to your change water so the levels don't change. <So for a 50% pwc, add 1 teaspoon to the change water.> The salt is for prevention of nitrite posioning during the cycling process.

i would hold off on any meds at theis point.

Note that although a 3 gal is better tahn a 1, it si still too small for a gold fish. It will be difficult to keep stable parameters in a small setup. A 10 gal would be much better.

 

[eatinglightning]

thank you so much. i just arrived home with 30 bux worth of 2 kinds of test strips (ammonia and 5-in-1). i should've known! but i do have the aquarium salt too, and bought the sinking foods so he can eat. i am gratefully taking yr advice and will let you know how it goes. i will see if i can get him a ten-gallon tank after christmas.

thanks again for the help!

xx

-p

 

[Zagz]

If you haven't opened the test strips take them back. The test strips are not as accurate as a liquid test. You can find the AP master test kit for usually less money. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Freshwater Master Test Kit at Big Al's Online

 

[eatinglightning]

thanks for the advice; i didn't open them and will definitely make the swap. *sigh* they looked so much easier....

 

[Zagz]

Unfortunately easier is not always the best way in this hobby. The liquid tests aren't too bad once you get used to them. And they are more accurate.

 

[eatinglightning]

ugh, not working

well, i have done the daily 40 percent water change, and i have been dechlorinating the water and salting the tank as per instructions....but he is no better. he gets a little frisky a bit after the change, and tries to swim high, but then he just crashes to the bottom and lies on his side for a bit.

i have to leave him alone for a week on saturday. i really want to buy him the new ten-gallon tank today. is that a bad idea? i mean, will he have to deal with break-in time and be possibly even sicker? is the plastic tank/biowheel thing with no airstone part of the problem?

i am buying the liquid tests tonight. i already got him sinking food. he is still eating well...but still just lying in the corner most of time. i am so confused. he was so happy in his little 1-gallon tank for three years! which now seems insane...

anyway, thanks everybody for all the advice. i am very grateful for it.

--p

 

[jsoong]

I can be more specific with some numbers from the test kit.

Couple possibilities:
1. His 1 gal is very much "polluted" (ie high nitrates) but since the levels built up over time, he is adapted to that. When you moved him to the 3, the new water (even though perfectly clean) is a shock to the system. <This is the so called old tank syndrome.>
2. Your tank is undergoing cycling & the ammonia is too high in spite of the water changes. This could be in additional to 1. A healthy fish can stand some bad water up to a point, but a stressed fish (from the move) might not.
3. All the stress had lowered his immunity & he had caught an additional illness.

I think that having clean water is the key. It is the first step in treating of illness. So please get the test kit & post your numbers.

Once you get the water parameter stable, you might consider other measures for the swimbladder dysfunction: <Moving to a bigger tank is prob not worthwhile doing at this time.>

What is the water temperature? Warming up the tank may help in digestion & immunity.

Treat for presumed bacterial infection - I do this if there are other signs of infection - red veins in fins, etc., or if all else fails. Generally, it is best to treat with an antibiotic containing food (preferably kanamycin). Unfortunately, antibiotics in water ahd not been shown to be effective in goldies, with *maybe* the exception of kanamycin. <Erythromycin - that is Marycin - is no longer good for goldies due to bacteria resistence.>

If antibiotic food don't help, you might try treating for internal parasite - Prazi is recommended here - again use food containing the drug.

Some goldfish are born with swimbladder problems, or develope it permanently after stress/illness. It is uncurable, but people at the GAB had success looking after those fish & they can live a long life in spite of disabilitiy.

This is a good place to start learning about goldfish bouancy problems:
Goldfish and Aquarium Board Article-Buoyancy Issues in Fancy Goldfish (aka Swim Bladder)

But as stated before, water quality comes first .... everything else comes after the water parameters.

 

[eatinglightning]

thank you

i just wanted to say thanks for all the advice. i think you were right on the money about him living in a dirty tank for so long and then being brought low by the sudden lack of bacteria. it looks like his swim bladder is permanently messed up, but he otherwise seems very happy. i got rid of the filter and got him a bubbler instead, and do whole water changes weekly, and that seems to be working. i'm sad not to see him swimming around but happy that it looks like we'll be hanging out together for years to come! thanks again, and belated happy new year.
xxxp

 

[bluerose]

Eatinglightning, a filter is GOOD THING-- it provides a home for beneficial bacteria, mechanically filters water as well as biologically (removing ammonia mostly). Goldies are dirty fish and make quite a bit of mess which translates into toxic waste. If your filter current was too strong, I could see how it could have made life harder for your gold and his swimbladder issues, but a filter is a good thing for keeping water quality stable.

If you still opt to go without a filter, I would do twice weekly 100% changes with a gold in such small quarters. Remember to dechlorinate (just leaving the water out will only deal with chlorine, not chloramine and other toxics that a good dechlorinator such as NovAqua+ or Prime will neutralize).

Good luck.

 

[eatinglightning]

you're right

bluerose, thank you; i meant to write you earlier and tell you i took your advice and am doing whole water changes twice a week. he seems to be fine, but i am putting the filter back in next week. but then i won't be able to have the bubbler in there? hopefully this will work fine, as it is the biowheel filter the tank came with. anyway, thanks again, i really appreciate your advice.

xxx
p

 

[bluerose]

Bubblers don't do much, really. They're useful for oxygen exchange in a tank with a small surface area, but if you have a filter that causes a bit of ripple/splash in the water surface, it'll be fine.

 

[eatinglightning]

thank you/new question

blue rose, thank you for your advice; i read it and took it. my oranda is now living in a 3 gallon eclipse system tank, with an activated carbon filter and a little biowheel that provides aeration. i salt the tank, which i started doing in november when he got sick, and add ammquel plus to the water to get rid of nitrates, etc. i always let the water stand overnight before i change him; i perform whole-tank changes weekly.

last week i let him go an extra couple days before i changed his water: the water looked clear, but he is sluggish, and not moving around too much (he has been living on the bottom for the past 8 months owing to his swim bladder problem, but he has been feisty). he went for his dinner when i gave it to him, but not with the usual gusto. he looks okay except for a slightly darker orange patch on his big brainy top, and some slight reddish veining in his tail. i have to go out of town overnight and want him to be okay.

did i hurt him by letting him go a few extra days without changing him? is there anything i can do to make him feel better? thank you so much in advance for you advice; this forum has been invaluable to me, and i am very grateful for all the help i have received here.

xx

 

[jsoong]

What are your water parameters? Clear looking water does not mean much, I am afraid, as most of the toxins are colorless.

In a small tank, water changes is key. Red veining in tail may well be due to poor water quality. Short of getting a bigger tank, you are stuck with doing water changes religiously .... and you will have to up the frequency & amounts as the fish grows.