Please Advise On My New Tank.

[dskidmore]

Oh, and yes, you can test the cycle in the QT before you add fish. If you do bring over the live rock, there's a chance that will work. If you keep the QT bare, it will certainly not be cycled, even if you use water from the main aquarium and use an instant cycle product.

To test, or start a fishless cycle, add an overly generous helping of food, or use a more refined ammonia source to bring the ammonia level up to 4ppm, and see how long it takes to go down to 0. (Food will take a day to break down and spike ammonia levels. If you don't see ammonia levels increase the next day, add more food than you did the day before. A pure ammonia source should be testable right away.)

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

Dai,

I think you're missing the point... if you cycle the quarantine tank, that will take just as long as cycling the main tank. And it sounds like your main tank really isn't cycled, so there's no cycled media to put in the quarantine tank. And you want the rock and sand in your main tank because that is what you will be cycling - the bacteria live there... not in the water.

The reason folks suggested the QT setup was because it will be easier to keep the water cleaner because the tank capacity is smaller. You are going to end up with ammonia in the QT, but you can do 20-30% water changes in it daily to keep the levels reasonable. Keeping the QT bare with no rock or sand makes it easier to suck out excess food/poop/etc to keep the waste levels down.

 

[CaptainAhab]

Exactly , be that the sump (after isolating it) or a new tank you want to call your QT

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

Hi all,

The reason why I thought about checking the cycle in the QT is because I still have a blenny in the main tank (impossible to retrieve) and bunch of corals on rocks that are too big to be placed on my 10 gallon tank. Everyday I put some pieces of raw shrimps in the main tank but I have yet to see a spike.Dai

 

[dskidmore]

I think I've heard one raw shrimp per 30 gallons if you're doing the shrimp method.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

Hi all,

The reason why I thought about checking the cycle in the QT is because I still have a blenny in the main tank (impossible to retrieve) and bunch of corals on rocks that are too big to be placed on my 10 gallon tank. Everyday I put some pieces of raw shrimps in the main tank but I have yet to see a spike.Dai

Guess I missed the part where you said you had corals. That puts a different spin on the story...

Regardless... that main tank has to be cycled. Period. There's no way around it. Maybe it has cycled already, but it sure doesn't sound like it. If you introduce an ammonia source (raw shrimp) and you don't see any ammonia, BUT you instead see an increase in nitrates then your tank has cycled. You should be testing for ammonia, nitrites, AND nitrates each day. Write those numbers down each day. After a week, you should know where you're at - if no ammonia/nitrite, but your nitrates slowly increase then you're cycled. If you see ammonia/nitrite, but no change in nitrates, then you're still cycling.

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

Guess I missed the part where you said you had corals. That puts a different spin on the story...

Regardless... that main tank has to be cycled. Period. There's no way around it. Maybe it has cycled already, but it sure doesn't sound like it. If you introduce an ammonia source (raw shrimp) and you don't see any ammonia, BUT you instead see an increase in nitrates then your tank has cycled. You should be testing for ammonia, nitrites, AND nitrates each day. Write those numbers down each day. After a week, you should know where you're at - if no ammonia/nitrite, but your nitrates slowly increase then you're cycled. If you see ammonia/nitrite, but no change in nitrates, then you're still cycling.

Hi,

I just checked my water and NO2/3 are still 0. Ammonia is still 0 too. SG = 1.025 and Ph is 8.3. I also had the water retested and the same reading still. I was advised by the LFS today that " Trust us. Your tank IS cycled. Absolutely no questions about it!". I am not saying I do not trust what I have told on here but just to let you all know what I was advised. Dai

 

[dskidmore]

0/0/0 makes no sense. If you were not cycled, one of the first two numbers would be non-zero, if you were cycled, the last number would be non-zero.

I do more with freshwater than salt lately. If this was a freshwater planted tank I'd say you had a nitrogen limited growth condition, and your plants were sopping up the nitrogen as fast as it is produced. Do you have a PO4 (phosphate) test kit? If so, then I'd expect a nitrogen limited tank to test positive for PO4.

You said you had algae, how much? Can you take pictures?

Even if that is the case, there is something "fishy" with your water. You are using premixed saltwater from the LFS, and you reported the fish behaving better right after a water change, so that water is probably good. What are you using for topoff water?

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

It can take about a week or so for measurable ammonia to show up, once the shrimp is introduced. Be patient. Most likely, nothing is wrong with your water.

If your LFS is correct, then you'll see nitrates show up with no ammonia or nitrites. And then you are good to go.

If your LFS is wrong, then you'll see ammonia show up, followed by nitrites, and finally nitrates. When ammonia and nitrites to to zero, then you are good to go.

Same end result.

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

0/0/0 makes no sense. If you were not cycled, one of the first two numbers would be non-zero, if you were cycled, the last number would be non-zero.

I do more with freshwater than salt lately. If this was a freshwater planted tank I'd say you had a nitrogen limited growth condition, and your plants were sopping up the nitrogen as fast as it is produced. Do you have a PO4 (phosphate) test kit? If so, then I'd expect a nitrogen limited tank to test positive for PO4.

You said you had algae, how much? Can you take pictures?

Even if that is the case, there is something "fishy" with your water. You are using premixed saltwater from the LFS, and you reported the fish behaving better right after a water change, so that water is probably good. What are you using for topoff water?

Hello,

I went back to the LFS and had my water tested again. And again, the water was deemed to be "outstanding" and ready for all kinds of corals and fish. I inquired about what I was advised regarding delayed cycle so they summoned another person in the store who is considered expert in SW. After consultation on my set up, all three members agreed that the water without any possible doubts that it is cycled. I then inquired about the cause of death of the Tang, the feather duster and the unwell being of the two clowns. I was told that likely it is due to the way that the fish were collected by cyanide (bought from other LFS) and their demise had nothing to do with water quality. I also inquired about the lack of ammonia,NO2,NO3 spike and I was told that with a LS,LR set up and only 3 fish, the spike will not be evident.
Now, regarding my tank. The two clowns are still alive but hanging at the upper end corner. The blenny comes in and out few hours a day to feed. There were blown algae appeared in last few days but now completetly gone. I think the snails clean it up. It should be noted that after I removed 30 gallons and top it off with premixed LFS water 3 days ago, the clowns turned ill and the feather duster died. They got worse, NOT better and I think the change was too much for them. I think my situation deserves to be looked at closely as it is a good learning experience for all of us. I will take photos and post them here so we can all look at it. Regarding top off water, I use RO bought from the LFS. Dai

 

[CaptainAhab]

You are indeed unique then. I have never heard tell of anyone using tapwater as a source, in a cycled tank (+ adding the raw shrimp) and have 0 nitrates.

Must be those bad fish then.

Good luck with it. I'm out

 

[roka64]

To farther explain Kurt's explanation.
If you have a cycled tank the rotting shrimp will produce ammonia which will quickly be converted to nitrItes and nitrAtres.
If it is not cycled, you will see a spike in the ammonia, then decline and a spike in nitrItes, then decline with a rise in nitrAtes.

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

To farther explain Kurt's explanation.
If you have a cycled tank the rotting shrimp will produce ammonia which will quickly be converted to nitrItes and nitrAtres.
If it is not cycled, you will see a spike in the ammonia, then decline and a spike in nitrItes, then decline with a rise in nitrAtes.

Hello all,

First let me say that I am extremely honored to have all the help here and I am deeply touched. If I have offended anyone please accept my apology. I do understand the nitrogen cycle as the tank (if cycled by now) should have some reading in Nitrate. And if it is not, then ammonia and nitrite should be there as the bacteria is not there enough to break them down. The fact that all readings are zero lead me to conclude:

1. The water is "virgin" meaning there is no breaking down of food debris to ammonia and nitrite. Impossible senerio.

2. The cycle is done and the bacteria is doing such a good job that there is no trace of nitrate. Possible maybe?

3. All the test kits (mine and LFSs) are defective. Possible but highly unlikely.

4. My tank is undergoing "extended delayed cycle". Don't know what to think on this one.

I wish I could dose the main tank with ammonia and see if nitrate level increases as that indicates the presence of bacteria. However, with the fish and corals there, it is not a practical option now. I will keep you all posted on what I find out as I will bring another water sample to LFS today. I know all of this sounds crazy but there has to be an explaination to this. A five week old tank got to have some readings of ammonia, NO2/3 somewhere during its course but somehow I wasn't able to record it. Dai

 

[cmor1701d]

Order some Salifert test kits for Nitrite and Nitrate on the Internet unless you can find them locally. There should be a white sticker with the expiration date of the test kit on the top of each box. Read the directions then run the tests and post the results after several days of testing.

Have you added any additional rock (base or live) to your tank yet?

You have said several times that you add pieces of raw shrimp to teh tank. How big are the pieces. You need to add about 3-5 complete raw shrimp to the tank to have enough rotting matter to create the spike in ammonia. You can skip the shrimp and add 45 pounds or so of uncured live rock. That will have enough rotting matter to create the spike. 60 pounds of rock is not enough in a 125 gallon tank to sustain the amount of bacteria you will need when your tank is populated.

You have also posted timelines wth Day 1 informaton a couple of times but I think the timeframes are completely different. Can you post a single continuous timeline of everything you did? For instance, when did you add the raw shrimp for the first time? Was the first day you set up the tank or 5 weeks later when you were advised to do so on this site?

In your next post please tell us the current condition of everything in the tank:
How much rock?
Any thing still living?

Then let us know what steps you are planning on taking next.
Then don't do anything until you have had a few replies from the folks here who are trying to help you get a succesful tank going.

 

[dskidmore]

No matter what the LFS folks say, don't buy anything but test kits, salt, and water until you figure out what is going on with these fish/inverts. Even if the tank really is pristine, you don't want any existing fish disease to infect new acquisitions.

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

Order some Salifert test kits for Nitrite and Nitrate on the Internet unless you can find them locally. There should be a white sticker with the expiration date of the test kit on the top of each box. Read the directions then run the tests and post the results after several days of testing.

Have you added any additional rock (base or live) to your tank yet?

You have said several times that you add pieces of raw shrimp to teh tank. How big are the pieces. You need to add about 3-5 complete raw shrimp to the tank to have enough rotting matter to create the spike in ammonia. You can skip the shrimp and add 45 pounds or so of uncured live rock. That will have enough rotting matter to create the spike. 60 pounds of rock is not enough in a 125 gallon tank to sustain the amount of bacteria you will need when your tank is populated.

You have also posted timelines wth Day 1 informaton a couple of times but I think the timeframes are completely different. Can you post a single continuous timeline of everything you did? For instance, when did you add the raw shrimp for the first time? Was the first day you set up the tank or 5 weeks later when you were advised to do so on this site?

In your next post please tell us the current condition of everything in the tank:
How much rock?
Any thing still living?

Then let us know what steps you are planning on taking next.
Then don't do anything until you have had a few replies from the folks here who are trying to help you get a succesful tank going.

Hello,

On Day 1, as soon as there was water in the tank, I inocculated with fine pieces of raw shrimp twice daily (am before going work and at dinner time). Each serving is small about 1/5 teaspoonful. The reason I did not do more is because I figured with LR and LS, I did not think I needed much.
Once I put in the cleaning crew on Week 2, I still do twice daily but more in amount (1/2 teaspoonful). I continue this to this present time. There is 4 inches of LS (crushed corals and Carreabean live sand) and 60 lbs of live cured rocks covered with coraline algea. There are now two percula clowns (alive but hang at the corner with little appetite), one canary blenny that eats a lot but only comes out few hours a day. Three colonies of false corals (brown and green) alive but do not open up like in the LFS, two leather finger corals that seem to open up well, 8 mushrooms (brown and green) that open up well. All the cleaning crew are alive although all the snails tend to huddle at one corner.

The plan is to test the water daily to see if anything changes. Since I have no place to put away my fish and corals, I can't do a forced ammonia spike right now. I mentioned about that to my LFS and was advised that there is no need to do so since the tank is cycled. They also told me that 1-1.5 lbs LR/gallon for proper bacteria production is old school of thought and is no longer practiced by today's aquarists. Yesterday I was advised to buy some fish as there is no need to wait for a cycle that is already here. Dai

PS: Do you think it is a good idea for me to print this thread and show the LFS people the situation here? I don't want to question their expertise as they have been really helpful with me. However, someone has to be incorrect regarding whether the tank is cycled or not. Dai

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

...I mentioned about that to my LFS and was advised that there is no need to do so since the tank is cycled. They also told me that 1-1.5 lbs LR/gallon for proper bacteria production is old school of thought and is no longer practiced by today's aquarists. Yesterday I was advised to buy some fish as there is no need to wait for a cycle that is already here. Dai

Well then, guess you don't need our advice now, do you?! I didn't realize I was "old school" with my thoughts about live rock. I wonder what "new school" is?

PS: Do you think it is a good idea for me to print this thread and show the LFS people the situation here? I don't want to question their expertise as they have been really helpful with me. However, someone has to be incorrect regarding whether the tank is cycled or not. Dai

Thanks for the chuckle... you don't want to question their expertise (those that are making $$ off you) but are more than happy to disregard a bunch of folks that have established tanks, that have done exactly what you're going through, and are not in a position to make $$ off you. Made me chuckle.

You are correct - someone is wrong. But debating it on the internet is pointless. Throw in a WHOLE raw shrimp and let it dissolve into nothing. Within 2 weeks you will find out who is correct. No doubts about it.

Good luck to ya!

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

Well then, guess you don't need our advice now, do you?! I didn't realize I was "old school" with my thoughts about live rock. I wonder what "new school" is?

Thanks for the chuckle... you don't want to question their expertise (those that are making $$ off you) but are more than happy to disregard a bunch of folks that have established tanks, that have done exactly what you're going through, and are not in a position to make $$ off you. Made me chuckle.

You are correct - someone is wrong. But debating it on the internet is pointless. Throw in a WHOLE raw shrimp and let it dissolve into nothing. Within 2 weeks you will find out who is correct. No doubts about it.

Good luck to ya!

Thank you so much for your reply. I really need to say that I am not disregarding the advice that I have been blessed to have here. I just can't thank you all enough. I am not saying that the LFS advice is correct and what was advised on AA is bunk. I am just letting you all know what I was told by LFS about my current situation. I am not going to buy fish and corals because they say that my water is ready. The reason I bring all this up is not trying to have match between AA and my LFS but rather for me to understand the reasoning on both sides. Please know that I am not disregarding all the help that I am given here. I apologize for all the trouble I have caused. Sincerely, Dai

 

[dskidmore]

Well then, guess you don't need our advice now, do you?!

Don't be so harsh. There would be no thread to discuss this if Dr. Phan was not questioning the LFS advice. From another prospective we are "amateurs" and those who make money are "professionals". There is a large collective wealth of knowledge there, but until you've really watched what these other "amateurs" have done over time, the average person has no reason to really trust some random people on the internet over someone they know in person.

 

[dskidmore]

I apologize for all the trouble I have caused. Sincerely, Dai

You've been no trouble to me.