Rams and pH Levels

[aveldina]

Hello all,

I have a quick question regarding pH levels and Blue Rams. I had a thread kicking around before where I was looking at stocking my 36G with 2 rams and 1 angel. I spoke with my LPS and the person working at the time had some helpful advice to offer but I'm wondering about a few things.

He expected rams would be fine with angels but said the rams would die if I didn't have my pH at or less than 7. The pH where I live is naturally around 8 and with my 2 pieces of driftwood & plants right now I'm sitting at 7.8. His suggestion was add more driftwood, but would it make a big difference? I don't know how much more I can add before I run out of space and I have no wish to use chemical to alter the pH. With a very slow introduction could the rams handle a pH this high? Do I have any other options?

Also he figured I could get 4 rams and 1 (or 2) angels with a 36G (and my current 7 red eye tetras + soon to add 3-4 cories). This seems way over stocked to me, but I'm wondering if that's true.
Thanks!

Oh, one more thing, has anyone ever heard of "assassin snails?"

 

[SpeedEuphoria]

Lots of questions! J/K

The rams do like lower PH, I doubt that below 7 is necessary. Angels also like lower PH but have been breed for years so I dont think its much of an issue. I have 8.0 PH also and would love a pair of German Blue Rams, but not sure yet. If not I'm going for Bolivian Rams as they seem to be hardier to the high PH from what I've seen.

Lowering your PH is tricky and not recommended for most, unless you have RO water that you can mix with your tap water. IMO driftwood is not going to lower your PH much more then it is now and will eventually go back up with water changes to the natural 8.0

Personally I would stick with 2 rams and 1-2 Angels.

Assain snails kill other snails, kind of rare, but have seen them around lately

 

[DSenn]

Let me tell you what most people on here would say right now...

Your Rams will adjust fine to a 7.8, as long as you acclimate them slowly (which should be done for any fish, but especially sensitive fish like Rams). They will also tell you that their rams have spawned in this pH as well. Rams prefer that 6.6-6.8 range and softer water and personally I would shoot for softer water, but, even though a 7.8 is a little high, it is not dire.

Do not use chemicals to alter your pH. If you want to lower it, you can mix your tap with R.O./D.I. water, or use peat. Mixing the R.O. and tap will dilute your KH and lower your pH, but don't take out too much KH. When I mix my R.O. and my tap, I shoot for 2dKH. Since I am not lowering it any further with CO2, I end up with a 7.2 pH, give or take, so R.O. might be your best option.

In terms of overstocking, I think you have reached your limit with all you have listed, but I feel that as long as you keep up with regular water changes, you should be just fine with what you have. The Angel and the rams should be fine also. However, I'd lose the Angel and get 3 rams. It looks better to add more of one species then less of many species, IMO.

 

[harmy4993]

i have a ph oh 7.8 out of the tap and have had no ram related worries. even when i had an outbreak of ich my ram was the only fish that didnt show any signs of contacting ich. so to me that tells me they were plenty healthy. the only reason you should have a need to adjust your ph is if you were trying to breed fish.

 

[cory1]

Rams do not tolerate sudden lower temp changes very well...i run my tap water thru a filter and into a $80 poly tank from Bunnings that way i can remove the chlorine and set my pH before i pump into my tank it just gives me more time to both age the water and set the parameters that i need
The water the comes from our water supply is close to a pH of 8 way too high for my amazons

 

[harmy4993]

Rams do not tolerate sudden lower temp changes very well...i run my tap water thru a filter and into a $80 poly tank from Bunnings that way i can remove the chlorine and set my pH before i pump into my tank it just gives me more time to both age the water and set the parameters that i need
The water the comes from our water supply is close to a pH of 8 way too high for my amazons

im pretty sure that goes for almost all fish. it puts there body into shock.

 

[cory1]

Too true ,by your response you know about what your talking about

But some fish species react in different ways to changes in water quality and temp...corys usually will sporn with a drop in water temp mimicking the snow thaw

 

[aveldina]

Okay, with the slow acclimation, how do you actually set this up? I've read about references to a 'drip' method.. what did you use to drip the water?
I tested the tap water here last night and found it was ~8.1. I don't know if buying & mixing RO water constantly is something I really want to get into, I might just have to look into fish that can tolerate the local pH. What kind of ratio for mixing RO to tap would you recommend?

 

[black hills tj]

Drip Acclimation involves setting up a container with the new specimen below your tank. The trim a piece of airline tubing to the desired length such that it reaches from the main tank, to the acclimation container. Towards the bottom of the tubing, tie a loose knot. Begin the syphon, and tighten or loosen the knot such that it gives you the desired flow.

The GBR's can tolerate and will spawn in high PH aquariums. I'm speaking from experience here I currently have 2 females in my 20g tank, and they are healthy as can be.

The ratio of RO:Tap depends on your tap water's GH and KH.

 

[bs6749]

Aveldina, the advice given by Dsenn to keep 3 GBR's is not good at all. Most of the people that have posted on here have little experience in dealing with rams and their advice is simply written in words what they have heard from others. If you want truthful answers you should listen to someone with years of experience with rams such as myslelf. Blackhillstj also offers good information in his post. Here's my take on your situation.

Rams are NOT as "delicate" as everyone says they are if you get good stock. By good stock I mean that you should buy from a local breeder or purchase fish that did not come from an Asian fish farm. The GBR's from Asia are treated with both hormones and growth hormones for quick sale. GBR's are much more highly sought after than Bolivian rams soley because of their color. Generally rams will color up nicely for sale around 4-5 months without being hormone treated. However, they can be ready for sale much more quickly if they are larger and are more colorful. The breeders in Asian fish farms don't care that the fish will die within several months of you taking the fish home from the store, they simply want to sell more fish and they make the fish reach a sellable size and color more quickly with the use of hormones. It's these hormones which make the fish eventually die in your tank shortly after taking it home from the fish store. The most important thing to keep in mind when keeping rams is that you need QUALITY STOCK in order to expect success of any kind in keeping them.

Secondly, rams will be perfectly fine in a pH of 8.0, I kept my 4 spawning pairs in a 55 gallon tank at a pH of 8.0 and they spawned regularly for me. Many others have had much success as well with these fish at higher pH levels. If you get wild caught fish, which I'm sure you won't be able to come by easily, you WILL need to keep an acidic pH. Nearly all rams in the hobby however are tank bred and are already adjusted to higher pH levels. I suggested finding a local breeder because more than likely the breeder is using the same water that you are and the fish are already adjusted to that pH. The same thing goes for the fish store's water near you but the problem here is that fish stores don't often have the best quatlity rams to begin with and they opt to buying cheap Asian bred strains for much less than what they are willing to pay for rams locally. What would you rather buy, some short-lived Asian bred ram for $6 or a nice quality locally bred ram for up to $6-10? The answer is obvious to me but that's because I take pride in my stock and will pay for quality over quantity.

Rams should be kept in sexed pairs in an aquarium. You could keep 2 sexed pairs in your 36 along with 2 angels and 4-5 cories no problem. If you were to put an odd number of rams in the tank more that likely you will get a pair and the odd fish out will be harassed by the newly formed pair and may even be killed. Take my advice and add 2 sexed pairs to your tank. Chances of a pair forming are much better if you purchase juveniles from the same brood.

Driftwood won't lower you pH by any significant level. You might expect your pH to drop from 8.0 to 7.6 but that's stretching it in my opinion. I do suggest adding driftwood but for the purpose of decoration rather than to ower the pH. Peat will also work but it is used up after about 5 days and needs to be replaced. That gets expensive so your better option of lowering pH would be with RO/DI or some form of purified water. I'd suggest leaving it where it is though unless you really want to experiment with it. Your rams will be perfectly fine and happy in a pH of 8.0.

Assassin snails are the "newest fad" in the hobby it seems. They are plant friendly and they will eat other snails in the tank (not their own species). If food is available in the form of other snails, the assassin snails will produce a single egg about evey 10 days. Once the "pest snails" are all eaten the assassin snails stop reproducing. Generally you can find these snails available on AquaBid or on some fish forums. They will typically run you anywhere from $2.50-5 plus shipping for a snail.

 

[aveldina]

Thank you very much! That's sort of what I suspected, as the local store is probably using the same water as me. I'm going to ask tonight where their rams come from and see if they are straight forward with me. Either way it sounds like a great idea to start looking into local breeders, but Saskatchewan cities are not exactly large.. how would you suggest going about finding breeders?

And sexed pair isn't a matter of just getting a male and female, correct? Pretty much the only way I'll find a sexed pair is through a local breeder? I don't think local pet store employees could even tell me if they're M/F nevermind sell me sexed pairs. (sigh) I'm not interested in breeding them, we've already got multiplying platyies to look after in our other aquarium. It would be interesting down the road if I had space for more aquariums & more experience, but living in an apartment is just terrible for space. In this case is it acceptable to have any two that are M/F or two females?

I was curious about the plant friendliness of the snails as my rams horn snails have decided that stripping leaves off my plants is a great idea. The particular snail that was doing it got booted over to my roommate's fake plant aquarium, so I'm hoping the remaining rams horn leaves the plants alone..

 

[bs6749]

If possible, take a picture of the rams that they have at the fish store and I'll tell you what I think of the quality. Generally speaking if they have elongated bodies, are small and colorful then they are Asian bred and hormone injected.

A sexed pair simply means a male and a female. Good stock is easy to sex. You could keep two sexed pairs of rams in your tank. There may be aggression issues between the pairs but it will be reciprocated and not one sided. If you had 3 rams the aggression would be one sided and the lone ram would eventually be harassed to death (most likely).

As for the ramshorn snail, was it a Columbian ramshorn? They do get large and will eat plants.

 

[aveldina]

I'm going to check them out a little closer tonight and ask some questions. I'll post what I find out.

The snail was red and about 1.5cm (a little bigger than a half inch?). I don't think it was columbian, but I'm not 100% sure. It didn't seem interested in eating the plant leaves, just in ripping them off the plant.

 

[bs6749]

Sounds like a red ramshorn snail to me...the plant friendly kind. Columbian ramshorn snails get massive.

 

[aveldina]

I think my other ramshorn is the same kind, and it doesn't bother the plants.

I spoke to the manager on duty at my local pet store tonight and for once actually got to talk to someone who keeps their own aquariums. He also expected that I would have no problems with rams from their store as he keeps them also and breeds them using the same local water as I do. Apparently their stock comes from fish farms in florida and from a place in BC (canada) however he doesn't know where the BC fish are from beforehand. He believes their fish stock tends to be mostly male fish, but if I look into how to sex them then they're more than willing to help out with picking a male & female (assuming they have stock of both at the time).

They have both "jumbo" and regular blue rams, they seemed of a shorter shape to me and I believe had a shorter shape than the bolivians. The smaller ones were quite small compared to the bolivians they were with, maybe an inch-ish at the most? They also had several bolivian rams, do you know if they have the same problems?

I bought the cory cats tonight and absolutely love them already, they have such funny personalities! It's too cute how they follow each other around.