Seachem Prime

[tauquenmay]

I just bought Prime and made a quick 50% water change to my 10 gal using the product. Before this, the ammonia read 4 and I got scared (total newbie, when I got the fish all they told me was that I needed to give it one day for the filter to "clean" the bacteria in the aquarium), so after the water change, I used the API ammonia testing kit to look at the level again and it read 0, a total yellow color. But when I came home today after a trip and started to test it again it read 1! (obviously, my tank isn't cycled yet so I'm trying my best to go through it safely with Prime), can anybody tell me what's happening? Is Prime only used to temporary loosen the ammonia level? Thank you.

 

[jsoong]

Tauquenmay - Welcome to AA!

You are replying to a 2 year old thread - it may be better for you to start your own thread to get more specific replies. We need a bit more info to give you a better answer - tank size, when set up, what fish & when you added it, your pwc schedule, & other tank parameters (eg pH, NO2).

With what you posted, I would think your tank is going through its cycle. What test are you using? Nessler or Salicylate. If you are using the Nessler, I would expect that after a 50% pwc, the ammonia will only go from 4 to 2, not zero. <You will get a zero if you are using the salicylate test.>

Prime will not last forever. Seachem says it will last only 24 hrs. So if you are relying on Prime to tie you over the ammonia spike, you need to dose daily (or every other day.) If you have a salicylate test, you can use that to time your dosing, but it is far safer to actually do enough water changes so that the total ammonia is always low (less than 0.5).

 

[tauquenmay]

Prime

Ah, I'm sorry for the thread thing and thank you for replying. Total newbie and this is one of the first time I've done these things. I have a 10 gal with a pictus, 3 giant danio and 3 tiger barb (it might be overcrowded, yes and I've found out that its not good for you to buy that much fish for a new uncycled tank until weeks of after reading on the internet about the nitrogen cycle and ammonia and all those things, all they told me was that I needed to let the filter run overnight, what could I say?) Something else I've heard from Prime is that it could kill your fish, even if you dose daily, I searched for help from youtube about the product Prime and the answer I got was this reply from SnakeBlitz33 who did a complete cycle himself:


- I don't use prime in saltwater. Since it detoxifies not only ammonia but also nitrate, it can cause pH swings that are more likely to kill your fish than a small amount of ammonia.
If you do a cycle with fish, I suggest a hardy fish such as chromis or even a clownfish. I personally do not like to have the chance of killing living creatures though. That is why I recommend a fishless cycle.

After this reply, I'm starting to think again about using Prime, even with the effort of dosing and changing the water everyday, would it actually help or harm my fish? Does it really get the nitrogen cycle going? And btw, I use API ammonia testing product, and have no idea about Nessler and Salicylate test before.

 

[jsoong]

API makes both kinds of kit. The Fresh water would be the Nessler (one reagent bottle), the salt water would be salicylate (2 bottles).

I am not aware of Prime altering pH in FW (perhaps in SW ... I am no salty .... but the amount of nitrate bound is so small that I would think the change to be minimal ... you can proof it to yourself by just testing the pH.)

At any rate, you don't have nitrates in the beginning of the cycle, so the whole point is moot.

I think you are mixing up 2 different concepts:

1. Using Prime as a dechlorinator - you add the recommended amount to your change water at each pwc. This detoxify the water (of added disinfectants by the water co. & possibly any leeched out heavy metals like lead from your pipes.) Doing this is perfectly safe. <Actually it is manditory to use a dechlorinator if you are doing large water changes - as the disinfectant - chloramines - are toxic to fish at high enough dose.>

2. Using Prime as a ammonia/nitrite/nitrate binder - Seachem suggested that you can, in an emergency, add up to 5x the recommended dose of Prime to detoxify ammonia & other nitrogenous wastes. Some people have use Prime (or other ammonia binders) as primary means of managing the ammonia spike during cycling. This use is what gets people into trouble (although several members at this board swear by it!)

Personally, I think the safest way to fishy cycling is to do water changes to keep all levels low. In that context, Prime is a great dechlorinator.

I would only use it as an ammonia binder when you have an uncontrollable spike. It can tie you over the rough spots (esp. when you have a tank full of fish) in between pwc's. The problem I see with relying on Prime exclusive of water changes is that as Prime wears off, the toxic ammonia builds, and it is difficult to keep monitoring that all day (even if you have a salicylate test kit.) But if you keep adding Prime on spec daily, you run the risk of it accumulating above safe level.

Now that you already have all the fish, I would suggest sticking with the daily monitoring or levels & water changes. If you can keep the levels low, you can successfully cycle with fish (although it is a lot of work!) If possible, try to seed your tank with material from an established tank. That would speed up the cycle greatly.

 

[tauquenmay]

Hum... alright, I did another 50% water change just this afternoon adding Prime 2x the doses. The ammonia didn't go down as much but it was around .5 (it was like...2 before lolz.) I'm afraid to overdose it since I heard it'd be really hard for oxygen to get through and the fish will have a very hard time "breathing" (not sure if an airpump would help either, sended a message to Seachem about this). And for the testing kit, I think I have both salt water and fresh water since I bought mines separately and it says "reads saltwater and freshwater" on it. But with your advice I'll be confidence of adding 5x the amount next time on high ammonia emergency. Btw, I own a freshwater aquarium, that "supposedly" from what I heard, cycle faster than saltwater (weird xD), just want to know if it's true or not, and thanks Jsoong for replying, you've been very helpful

 

[jsoong]

In an ammonia emergency, you actually calculate the amount of Prime needed. The "usual" dose of prime binds 0.8 mg/l (ppm) of ammonia, so you can scale that for the actual ammonia level. <Just don't go over 5x the usual dose.>

As long as you are doing daily large water changes, there is little risk of Prime accumulating to a toxic level. With Prime's half life at 24 hrs, and if you are doing 50% changes daily, you should not get into toxic levels even if you dose 4x normal daily.

BTW - you prob. know this, but your nitrite spike will be next (after you get through the ammonia spike.) Prevention of nitrite poisoning is with a low level of aquarium salt. (In addition to water changes of course!)

The speed of cycling depends on the ammonia load, water temp, etc. I don't know if it is faster FW compared with SW, since in SW, most just buy live rocks with all the bacteria in it so you don't really go through a cycle from scratch.

 

[tauquenmay]

Ah, well, I would add some salt in... but one of the fish I own is scaleless, and salt would burn its skin, I don't know if adding a little would be just 3 or 4 grain of salt (yep, they're big pieces compare to the kitchen salt size which is usually the size they sell aquarium salt in) but I will once I detect nitrite in my tank. Also, I've been observing my fish and it seems that their gills are red! Yes, I know that is ammonia poisoning and that is also something else to get me even more confused with Prime. I read that daily water changes and using chemical to neutralize the ammonia would be a fast relief for the fishes until the cycle is done, so I've been doing 50% water changes everyday using 4x the amount of Prime directed. Right after I did the water change with adding Prime it read 1, which got me even more confused. I sended an email to Prime asking about their product and this is what I got:

What I sended:Hello Seaschem,
> I would like you to know that I've bought your product (Seachem Prime) the last 3 days, and used it right away after making a 50% water change in my 10gallon aquarium. Apparently, your product can really claim to remove the ammonia in the water! But what bothers me is your other claim of "may be used during tank cycling." After having a reading of 8 ammonia in my aquarium this morning, I hurriedly rushed through another 50% water changes using your product. Although it was a 50% of my 10g tank, I used 1.5 ML or 1/4 tsp of your product just to be safe. I checked the water again and it was 0 ammonia this time, and I was very relief. So the question I have here are:
>
> 1. I heard that overdosing like that could lower the oxygen level in the aquarium, if this happens would an air pump help?
>
> 2. The ammonia reached 0 as claimed, but how would you know if the cycling of the tank is continuing or not?
>
> 3. If the ammonia level reads higher, than does that mean that there's no toxic in the ammonia, but only the toxicless ammonia itself? (Just to be sure.)
>
> 4. Your product is just a water conditioner that doesn't say to reduce stress anywhere, so could it be used with other product that reduces stress? If so, how much dose should be used for each? (I'm using Jungle Start Right just to let you know.)


What I got:
Thanks for your questions on our product Prime. Prime works by binding to the ammonia and rendering it harmless to your aquarium inhabitants. While the Prime is bound to your ammonia, it allows the biological filter in your tank to easily digest the ammonia. Because of this, Prime is a great product to use while cycling because it will promote the growth of beneficial bacteria in your tank. Since Prime is known as a "reducing agent," overdosing will lead to binding of oxygen, reducing the amount of useable oxygen in the tank. You should not use more than 5x the recommended dosage every 48 hours. This dosage should be sufficient to alleviate ammonia and will be safe for your tank; you do not need an air pump. The cycling of your tank will continue if your readings read zero. Unless you are using Seachem's Multitest: Ammonia, the zero reading is probably caused by the interference of the de-chlorinator with the salicylate in the ammonia test. It is nothing to worry about -- aside from the chemistry, you will know your tank is still cycling when it reached the nitrite step of the cycle, so be sure to monitor those levels as well. Prime and our product "StressGuard" can be used together safely to accomplish both conditioning of the water and relieve stress on the fish. However, Stress Guard also has the capability of removing chlorine, so I would not suggest using them over the recommended dose and also adding these to your tank separately; do not combine them beforehand because the Prime would deactivate the StressGuard. Additionally, using Jungle Start is redundant with the use of Prime and StressGuard and may lead to an unintentional overdose of the products. I would suggest discontinuing the use of the Start Right.

Regarding your second email, as stated above Prime will bind and detoxify ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate long enough to allow your biological filter to pick it up. For chlorine and chloramine, Prime breaks the bonds and permanently eradicates them. Prime should be added directly to new water and dosed based on the volume of new water before it is added to the tank. Most people differ on how often they change their water, so it is up to you. I am cycling my tank right now as well, and I only do a 40% water change once a week. Whatever amount of change you feel you need to do, make sure you add the Prime to the tap water before you add it to your tank, and only dose for that amount (i.e. if you are changing 5 gallons of water, dose the Prime to your new water before you add it to your tank and dose Prime only for the 5 gallons). Feeding is perfectly fine during any this process.

Well, thanks for listening Jsoong, you've really helped me out once again about the salt advice and I will watch out for the Nitrite spike. btw the email is just for making things easier of having u to know what Prime told me.

 

[tauquenmay]

oh another thing, the prime got it to 0 last time after a water change but now it reads 1 with another water change also :/ weird lolz

 

[jsoong]

Since your ammonia test is for FW & SW, it would be a salicylate test so will read only the unbound ammonia. Prime only binds a certain amount of ammonia, so your ammonia level after pwc & Prime depends on how much ammonia is there to start with.

The gills are supposed to be red! Normal gills are full of oxygenated blood & should be bright cherry red (or dark pink). Ammonia poisoning will burn the gills & they will look ragged & congested. The gills would be dark red/purple. In addition, the fish would likely be gasping or breathing fast. In nitrite poisoning, the gills would look brown.

As to salt & scaleless fish (that would be the pictus you are refering to?), I think it is fine in the amount need to prevent nitrite posioning. You only need a Cl- level 30x that of nitrite for effective protection. This works out to something like 30 mg/l (0.03%) .... or about 1/3 to 1/2 teaspoon in the 10 gal. This is far less that the amount used in disease treatment.

Anyway, you need to work on the ammonia levels at this point. You might consider decreasing the amount of food &/or increasing the amount of water changed. If you are adding 4x Prime with 50% changes & still seeing unbound ammonia, you must be running pretty high total ammonia (I would guess 6-8 ). That is too high for my (& the fish's) comfort level.

 

[tauquenmay]

Yikes, I better higher that 50% to 70% than, or just enough to not get much water out of my tank for my fish to be flopping around the gravel (big woopsies.) And about the gills... I'm not sure if it's dark red... but it looks really bright and colored like the color of blood so that kinda scared me. And... I guess what I heard about Prime and increasing appetite is really true! My pictus usually is a bottom feeder but after a few days of water changes with Prime, it'd shoot right up the surface of the water freaking out all the other fish I have and devour the flake food! (usually I give it his very own shrinking pellet) But alright Jsoong, I'll consider feeding them less and making even more water changes, thanks again!