Serious issues going on.. SOS

[Halie201]

I'll try to make this quick and as to the point as possible..

Recently moved my well established 90g back into my house. Was so excited about having it back in my possession, that I got excited and went and bought 3 opaline gouramis and two small clown loaches to add to the larger 4 I already had- to make a nice school. Well, because I stooped to newb level when I did that without a qtank, I realized that someone brought ick/ich. I have dealt with this years ago and knew what I was looking for so I caught it pretty quickly. I only saw about three white spots on all of the fish total, and only a couple were flashing. It started with the gouramis. This was the 7th of this month. I immediately did a pwc and started to up the temp and add aq salt for treatment as I've had good luck with this treatment with loaches before. During these two weeks, I've done a 50% wc and vacuumed every 2-3 days taking out ab 15g in the process and replacing any lost salt. The temp has been at 86 and the salt is 1tbp per 5 gallons. So, it's been two weeks.. And I've lost one of the baby loaches (that I didn't see any spots on, but I'm thinking died more from stress of the new surroundings along with the high Temps and salt) and I'm still seeing ich. I'm not sure what's going on and why it's not gone..

But now I have another issue on top of that. One of my larger loaches is extremely bloated. She's been staying more to herself, without the group and I haven't seen her eat anything in a couple of days. I've tried giving her shelled peas, but she stays in her hut a lot so I'm not sure she's eating any. And today, I couldn't find the baby loach I recently got. so I go to search for him and find him in the same condition.. And he didn't look this way 2 days ago. Color is very pale, bloated and eyes look as if they're starting to bulge. I'm assuming this is a case of dropsy?.. My water conditions are;

Ph 7.6
Am 0
NitrITes 0
Nitrates - 40

stock:
1 Large blood parrot
5 clown loaches (ranging from 2-6")
Red tail shark
German blue ram
11 rosey tetras
3 opaline gouramis

I have API super ich cure on hand that has malechite green.. I've been hesitant to use it unless I HAVE to. But the heat and salt doesn't seem to be doing the trick as it's still lingering. I can only visibly see a few spots combined. But it's certainly still there and flashing is still happening. And then this dropsy mess..

I'm assuming the big move from one house to another stressed my fish out tons and then adding new fish didn't help.. Especially since they must have brought the ick with them. It's time for another big WC but I'm out of aq salt.. So I'm wondering.. What do I do?? Get more salt and continue this method and hope for the best?.. Do serveral large water changes to remove salt, lower temperature a bit and try meds at half dose? What about the dropsy?.. Should I go buy and set up a qtank for them? Lower that heat some, do small water changes to remove salt then treat with antibiotics and Epsom baths? Ive read stories about dropsy killing off an entire species and I'm really worried.. The loaches are my BABIES! I've had them more than four years and I really don't want to lose them. I feel terrible for not qt the new fish.. But my water conditions have been pretty dang pristine since having moved the tank here. I'm just so confused right now. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Side note: I'm aware the clowns need a bigger tank sooner than later and I am saving the money now to make that happen.

 

[Delapool]

Hi, its a risk either way. I would consider the dropsy more of a problem than the ich (from the sounds of it) and onto meds - which means out of the heat/salt method.


I'd go with something like seachem paraguard or your favourite ich treatment but start at a half or third dose (after reducing temp) on first night to allow adjustment. As well, either furan 2 OR triple sulpha for the dropsy. Both of these will also (slowly) help with the ich as well.

 

[Delapool]

Also what salt level did you get to as a percentage in water (or tablespoons per gallon)?

 

[Halie201]

Hi, its a risk either way. I would consider the dropsy more of a problem than the ich (from the sounds of it) and onto meds - which means out of the heat/salt method.


I'd go with something like seachem paraguard or your favourite ich treatment but start at a half or third dose (after reducing temp) on first night to allow adjustment. As well, either furan 2 OR triple sulpha for the dropsy. Both of these will also (slowly) help with the ich as well.

It does seem that way. The baby loach passed last night after performing a 40% water change with no salt. They all acted quite funny after that and I was worried the BP was going to die.. I'm wondering didni remove too much salt too fast. I was in a panic, though. Poor baby loach ? Amount of salt I used was 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. I added as tho my tank was only 80g, being as tho it isn't to the brim full and with all the sand and deco.. I added slowly over 3ish days. I plan on doing another eater change in a day or two of about 20% to continue to remove the salt. I've read that regular salt can have a negative impact on dropsy? Is this true? I've never heard of either of those medications (stated for dropsy).. Although I've never dealt with dropsy. The affected loach seemed to start getting fatter a couple of weeks ago but I paid it no mind as she was still eating and I thought maybe she was just fat. But now she's huge. Likes she's pregnant. She hasn't eaten anything thag I'm aware of, despite my attempts to have her eat peas. Her eyes aren't bulging though.. And she does come out of her cave some, still. But mostly stays to herself. I don't notice any really hard/fast breathing. Once I remove all the salt, should I quarantine her to prevent spreading of this? Or just leave her and try the epsom baths? Sorry for the lengthy posts and so many questions. I've posted this on about 4 sites and you're the only one to repond. So thank you.

 

[Delapool]

This may help

http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/healthdisease/119-fish-bloat.html

 

[Autumnsky]

So sorry for the awful situation, which is hard to go through.

A word of caution is about the temps, any raising of temps creates an environment where there is less oxygen available for the fish to use. So an increas in tempo requires an increase in aeration!!!

Plus with medication, temps can be an issue - some work better at a lower temp and some are VERY bad if used at a higher temperature!!!

Change as much water as you can to clear out everything in the tank before treating. But maybe 30-40% pwc back to back rather than 80% all at once.

Remove any carbon too or other like Purigen, before treatment of meds.

Can't recall at the moment but I seem to think/not sure that the Clown Loaches don't like copper, like contain the malachite green victoria green, and others.

Also what are you using to test the water parameters? Dip sticks can be unreliable even if double check at one time for accuracy (as I pretty much lost a tank of fish in those conditions.)

 

[Delapool]

The salt level isn't that high imo so I don't think that has caused problems by itself. Unfortunately there is no real cure for dropsy, kanaplax I find makes things worse. Furan 2 or triple sulpha are ones that I have had some success with. Epsom salts can work as well. As we know it means the internal organs are not working correctly and it's hard to fix that in time.

 

[Halie201]

So sorry for the awful situation, which is hard to go through.

A word of caution is about the temps, any raising of temps creates an environment where there is less oxygen available for the fish to use. So an increas in tempo requires an increase in aeration!!!

Plus with medication, temps can be an issue - some work better at a lower temp and some are VERY bad if used at a higher temperature!!!

Change as much water as you can to clear out everything in the tank before treating. But maybe 30-40% pwc back to back rather than 80% all at once.

Remove any carbon too or other like Purigen, before treatment of meds.

Can't recall at the moment but I seem to think/not sure that the Clown Loaches don't like copper, like contain the malachite green victoria green, and others.

Also what are you using to test the water parameters? Dip sticks can be unreliable even if double check at one time for accuracy (as I pretty much lost a tank of fish in those conditions.)

Thanks for your reply. When I raised the Temps, I added a 14" bubble bar and pointed my filter output to the top of the water for more agitation. I will only add meds once temp is lower in the 82 range. Most meds I've read are okay at this temp. I do plan to remove all the current water that contains the salt before treating with any meds. I've done a 40% two days ago and plan to do another very soon. I do not use carbon in my filters so that is not an issue. But will when removing the medication. I'll do more research on the copper, but I do actually think I've read some success stories about copper with clowns. My test kits are liquid,except the Ph. That's a dip stick.

 

[Halie201]

Yeah I don't think the salt did the damage... But was curious if it actually made the condition itself worse (the bloat/dropsy). I will be trying the epsom salt. But still wondering should I remove her to her own space before trying this or should I leave her in the tank? Like I said I read some information stating that even tho it isn't "contagious", it's been known to affect an entire species until they're all wiped out. That in itself has me super worried. Thanks for the link. I think i actually read it before posting here.. But I'm still not sure which of those are the causes �� I'm not sure if it's a female or mature enough for the egg possibility. I know it isn't the swim bladder. I have dealt with that before, ugly stuff.

 

[Delapool]

Yeah I don't think the salt did the damage... But was curious if it actually made the condition itself worse (the bloat/dropsy). I will be trying the epsom salt. But still wondering should I remove her to her own space before trying this or should I leave her in the tank? Like I said I read some information stating that even tho it isn't "contagious", it's been known to affect an entire species until they're all wiped out. That in itself has me super worried. Thanks for the link. I think i actually read it before posting here.. But I'm still not sure which of those are the causes �� I'm not sure if it's a female or mature enough for the egg possibility. I know it isn't the swim bladder. I have dealt with that before, ugly stuff.

My experience is that everything except for external bacterial and parasite infections tends to restrict itself to the school or a fish and slowly creep from fish to fish. White spot and columnaris being faster moving ime.

I've used salt up around 4 tablespoons (US) per 5 gallons with no issues on catfish and tetras. But it could be making things worse - hard to know.

I think you had two cases( young one and old one?) which sounds like either water conditions (eg salt, not poor water) and/or bacterial.

If you can, I always think better to separate. I'm not sure if this has ich or not? If not, I'd definitely separate. And then go for clean water and an antibiotic.

 

[Halie201]

My experience is that everything except for external bacterial and parasite infections tends to restrict itself to the school or a fish and slowly creep from fish to fish. White spot and columnaris being faster moving ime.

I've used salt up around 4 tablespoons (US) per 5 gallons with no issues on catfish and tetras. But it could be making things worse - hard to know.

I think you had two cases( young one and old one?) which sounds like either water conditions (eg salt, not poor water) and/or bacterial.

If you can, I always think better to separate. I'm not sure if this has ich or not? If not, I'd definitely separate. And then go for clean water and an antibiotic.

New update, it seems as tho one of my tetras is becoming swollen now ? I'm seriously so upset right now. Should I go ahead and remove the tetras and loach and continue to do tiny water changed in their enclosure to remove the salt and then treat with an antibiotic? I'm so scared I'm going to lose all my fish. Also in assuming the entire tank has ich since I've seen at least one spot on all the fish (except the tetras and RTS. I've not seen any spots but seen then flash).. So I've got two diseases on my hands here and I'm starting to feel the panic. I'm not even sure that I have access to antibiotics that will actually help the conditions other than online. So I'll have to wait for those. Are there any that maybe pet smart carries that you know about by chance? They're the ONLY fish store with an hour of me that is worth going to.

 

[Delapool]

Just checking but all other parameters are good? ph, low organics in tank (ie not getting stirred up from water changes), etc. Are you dosing any bacteria in a bottle (I've had bad ones that seem to cause issues for fish).


How bad is the ich? Is it just a spot here or there / flashing OR covered in spots and excess slime coat.


How bad is the dropsy? Are the scales looking ruffled at all / bulging eyes OR just looking big?


Just checking but did the dropsy start after temperature was raised? It's an ongoing discussion here locally - I'm still of the opinion that a lift in temp (or maybe a change in temp) can favour bacterial issues. It sounds like the dropsy is spreading amongst the fish? (which would indicate internal bacterial to me as it sounds like you are lowering temp and salt to normal?). I just want to make sure we're going to treating for whatever is causing the dropsy (flashing being an easy one so to speak ) so sorry for the question list.


I'm in Australia so I usually carry some meds on hand and can't help with pet smart unfortunately. What antibiotics do they carry?

 

[Halie201]

Ph should be good, however I hardly check it bc every time I do, it reads the same as my tap water which is between 7.4&7.6. I also have one 15lb bag of cichlid sand with the Ph buffers in the tank. All 65lbs of sand is new/washed sand that u added when I brought the tank home. Organics.. Well I have been trying to feed peas but that was very recently. But there could be some pea bits flying around. And I did soak their food in garlic once but I tried my best to drain the food from the liquid first. I do vacuum the sand once a week. I have also moved the deco around twice since having the tank here if that may cause an issue.

The dropsy I do THINK started with the temp.. Although I won't say for sure. The clowns, at the time, did more hiding than anything so I hardly saw them and I have a terrible memory. I wish I could remember if I noticed her fatness first or the flashing. I don't see raised scales or bulging eyes in these two. But the baby that passed was definitely bugging at the eyes. And it happened very quickly with him. Two days before, he looked totally normal. The ich is mild. I could count on two hands how many spots I see. Give or take a few.flashing for sure.

I am currently trying to lower the temp and rid the salt but after how they reacted to the 40% change, I wanted to wait a few days before doing another. So tomorrow a WC is in order. Australia.!!?! That is awesome and made me smile in this dark moment lol. I am envious.

Petsmart carries : API E.M. Erythromycin and API Melafix. That's about it. They carry two "all in one" type meds but I usually don't go for those. I can order something if those aren't suitable in your opinion. I can't thank you enough for your help so far. You've been the only one willing to listen to all this and lend useful information.

 

[Halie201]

And no, no bacteria in a bottle stuff. The only thing I've added to the tank is prime (in tap water before it goes in the tank) and the API salt.

 

[Autumnsky]

Clean water is a help, have the lfs double check your numbers for water parameters. Yes it does sound like a bacterial infection based on the increase with temp. And then too I guess Ich? Geez hard to catch a break. Do you see any of the white spots creeping around on the fish, or any worms or movements near gills or anal area?

 

[Halie201]

Clean water is a help, have the lfs double check your numbers for water parameters. Yes it does sound like a bacterial infection based on the increase with temp. And then too I guess Ich? Geez hard to catch a break. Do you see any of the white spots creeping around on the fish, or any worms or movements near gills or anal area?

My nearest lfs is an hour away.. And I'm fairly confident with my liquid tests. The Ph may not be the best reading ever but.. For now it's all I have. Yes, I see white spots but very few. I can't see any on tetras, red tail, gouramis or blood parrot - now. But last week I saw one or two on the bp. I see one on my ram and I see like.. 2 or 3 on my clowns. But everyone in the tank has been flashing since the onset. No one is big enough or sits still long enough for me to notice worms or movements in those areas.

 

[Delapool]

Hopefully your tank can come good so we can see some pics

IMO sounds like the salt is neither here nor there (hopefully) and should be helping with ich. I'd lean towards internal bacterial infection - perhaps set off by temp change (rather than the salt / heat / tank water being an issue). Perhaps the fish shop had a bad batch or if the ich wasn't present, the rest wouldn't have been a problem - just too much stress and they caught infections.

Wouldn't worry about the salt level / water changes much. Lowering tank temp gradually back to normal should help.

ErythromycinI can't really comment on. Perhaps others will know if useful for bloated fish.

Melafix would I feel be a bit risky with bloated fish and may/may not do anything useful. I've copied a link below just in case you haven't seen it for reference.

Aquarium Medications Part 2 | Antibiotic & Antimicrobial Treatments

I would do an antibiotics treatment. I'm not sure what you have used in the past but if it has worked for bloat could be worth a try (as my tank chemistry may not be yours). Some people find peas or water changes or medicated fish food helps - whatever you are comfortable with really.

Assuming funds allow, here I would order enough furan 2 to treat the main tank twice (remove expensive plants ime). And also metronidazole. Both will also help with ich but eg seachem paraguard could be needed.

Seachem - ParaGuard

 

[toolman]

I'm not very helpful with sick fish issues, but Dela... & Autumnsky are the very experienced.

Just know you're not alone, just don't feel I have the knowledge to help. But I'm great at moral support, hope you get your tank straightened out... Will be following to add anything I can.

 

[Halie201]

Hopefully your tank can come good so we can see some pics

IMO sounds like the salt is neither here nor there (hopefully) and should be helping with ich. I'd lean towards internal bacterial infection - perhaps set off by temp change (rather than the salt / heat / tank water being an issue). Perhaps the fish shop had a bad batch or if the ich wasn't present, the rest wouldn't have been a problem - just too much stress and they caught infections.

Wouldn't worry about the salt level / water changes much. Lowering tank temp gradually back to normal should help.

ErythromycinI can't really comment on. Perhaps others will know if useful for bloated fish.

Melafix would I feel be a bit risky with bloated fish and may/may not do anything useful. I've copied a link below just in case you haven't seen it for reference.

Aquarium Medications Part 2 | Antibiotic & Antimicrobial Treatments

I would do an antibiotics treatment. I'm not sure what you have used in the past but if it has worked for bloat could be worth a try (as my tank chemistry may not be yours). Some people find peas or water changes or medicated fish food helps - whatever you are comfortable with really.

Assuming funds allow, here I would order enough furan 2 to treat the main tank twice (remove expensive plants ime). And also metronidazole. Both will also help with ich but eg seachem paraguard could be needed.

Seachem - ParaGuard

Looking now, I actually don't see any bloat in the tetra like I did last night. Hm. Strange.. Maybe it just ate too much at feeding time and was fat from that. But I do feel like, since they're kind of see thru, that some of their insides look more red and enflamed if that makes sense. My camera sucks and they move so much that I can't get good pictures. I did try to take some of the whole tank and of the swollen loach. I have two large heaters in the tank that's making the drop difficult. I've been turning them down slowly. And it's only managed to drop about 2 degrees so far. I have never treated bloat before ao I have no idea as far as meds except what I'm reading. And I have no expensive plants. My tank isn't planted, though I sometimes wish it were. I love the natural look and things is does for the water and fish. I will look those meds up and see about how much it would cost to dose. Thank you for the links, I'm about to look at them now.

 

[Halie201]

Okay so I ordered some meds.. I got the seachem kanaplex. It's supposed to work for dropsy.. I looked at the metroplex and it seems effective for ich but not sure about it working for the dropsy. I do have some ich treatment here so I'm not as concerned with that medication yet, also bc I feel the dropsy is more fatal and scary at this point. With the kanaplex, could it be combined with the furan 2?.. Or dose each individually?.. It says I'd need to dose with the furan 4 times to be effective. Which would end up being a little costly. Do you think the kanaplex itself would do the trick? Maybe?