Sick Angel with Fin Rot and Septicemia

[Muppeholic]

(Sorry if this is a dupe post . . . I forgot to put subject in with the last submission.)

About 2 weeks ago our pleco died due to a high nitrite level (according to LFS) in our 35 gal Hex tank. At that time we started daily water changes and put 1 Angel in our 2 gal QT tank as it showed signs of fin rot and septicemia. (The other angel and zebra danios would bully this one.) Despite the physical damage this Angel still is fairly active and has a good appetite. We did daily 25% water changes on both tanks until the water stabilized at:

Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate = 0; Water Hardness = soft/very soft; Alkalinity = Low; pH = 6.2 to 6.8 (We use the Mardel dipsticks for everything except Ammonia.)

It's been stable at this level for about 1 1/2 weeks now.

At first we used the LFS brand meds for the QT tank. The recommendation was 3 days ich treatment combined with Erythomyocin (5 days). At this time we were still doing daily changes because of the nitrites. It appeared that the fin rot had stopped advancing. However, a couple days later it started advancing again. This time we called Mardel and they recommended doing a 10-day Maracyn and Maracyn 2 treatment.

We've finished the 10 day and it seems the fin rot is healing. (Black edges along damaged fin areas.) However there is still the symptom of the red streaks for septicemia. It hasn't worsened but hasn't totally gone away either.

Should I give this fish a rest from medicine or immediately start it on a different medicine for the septicemia? Is the water quality at the right levels for the types of fish I have? I'm a complete novice with tropicals so any advice would be welcome.

The other fish in the 35 gal hex seem fine. The Zebras have gotten a bit chunky but are active. The LFS (after talking to me) said it sounded like I was overfeeding as they weren't showing any other symptoms of illness. One platy seem to be getting chunky but it looks like it might be pg since I see a faint "gravid spot". The other angel has what looks like minor nips on the dorsal fin but it heals fine. (I suspect one particular zebra danio but have no proof.) All fish in this tank appear really healthy, active, and have good appetites.

 

[flipz]

I can't offer much advice, but I know someone here will help you. I just have 1 question.

Why were you treating an angel that had fin rot with ich treatment meds? Ich is a nasty bacteria that causes white spots...

-brent

 

[Maillis]

I've used Kanacyn (Kanamycin) to treat septicemia with good results.

 

[Menagerie]

[center:aaf2966e88] Welcome to AA, Muppeholic! [/center:aaf2966e88]
Since you admit to being a newbie when it comes to tropicals, there are a few things I will say: get liquid tests for all water parameters, you want ammonia, and nitrites at 0, nitrates below 40ppm and read the article on FW ich written by Allivymar in the Articles section. In addition, never treat for a disease that isn't there, over medicating will cause you to loss your beneficial bacteria and the tank will no longer be cycled.
QT the ill fish with septicemia immediately. Right now, you don't know if it is caused by a bacteria or virus. My common pleco had hemorrhagic septicemia and responded well to treatment with Kanamycin.
As for the chunky fish, how often are you feeding them? Do they eat it all in 5 minutes?
For general tank health, how often do you vacuum the gravel and do water changes?

 

[Muppeholic]

We used ich treatment and fin rot treatment at the same time. The LFS had misunderstood us when we described symptoms. (We're such newbies to this that we sometimes don't describe real well.)

I'll get the liquid tests as soon as possible. We've been using the liquind ones for Ammonia. (We started this when we moved our rapidly growing goldfish from the 2 gal to the 35 gal. hex. The ammonia went through the roof. We had it in the big tank for about 4-5 months. It died about 2 months ago. We sanitized the tank per what our book said (bleach and water). Made sure it was well rinsed. Set it up and waited about 3-4 days before getting our "starter" fish. Which were the 4 zebra danios and the 2 Angelfish (the LFS said their Angels would do well as starters. . . they buy them from a local breeder and QT all new fish before putting them in tanks for selling.)

Our ill fish seems to be fully recovering from the fin rot. It even has a LOT more color today. It's been a couple weeks since it has shown off it's stripes so clearly. (It's still fainter than the healthier one in the other tank though.) The septicemia doesn't seem as pronounced but I don't know if this is true or just harder to tell since the fish is showing more color. I'll try to take some digitals and post them later. The QT tank is even starting to show signs of cycling again. It's not as cloudy as it was yesterday.

Should I go ahead and start the Kanamycin or wait to see if the septicemia goes away completely? The LFS wasn't positive but it could be hemorrhagic septicemia because the other angel fish was continually ramming and chasing this one. Really bullying it. There is one zebra that is semi-aggressive and was pestering it too. Mostly fin nipping. It could be because the fin rot was so bad and advanced that it got septicemia as well. I'd say 1/3 the fins and tail were affected in some way.

As far as the chunky fish (mostly the zebras) in the 35 gal I think it's because they're the fastest fish in the tank and tend to be food hogs at feeding time. Originally I was feeding a medium pinch waiting to see if it all got eaten. If it was within 2 minutes I'd add a small pinch more. The LFS says this can lead to overfeeding and recommended (especially since I was dealing with high nitrite at the time) that I just give one pinch. Then watch and if it seems that it all gets eating within 3-4 mintues then the next day give them just a tiny bit more to balance things out. We're alternating with tropical fish flakes one day and frozen brine shrimp the other. The only fish at this point that really look chunky are the zebras. In fact we had been concerned that the corys weren't getting enough food. We bought bottom feeder algae wafers. Since our corys are small we put in 1/4 wafer about 2 times per week.

For general tank health, we vacuum the gravel in the 35 gal every time we do a water change. It's been stable for about weeks now and never really had a serious "cloudy" period while cycling. Although now I'm seeing some slow development of brown algae on the plastic plants. Just a little, tiny bit and all the fish except the Angelfish pick at it during the day. Do I need to be worried about the algae? Should we try to get another pleco? Our LFS told us to get the tank's nitrite's down and stabilized before adding any more fish to it.

 

[Menagerie]

Do I need to be worried about the algae? Should we try to get another pleco? Our LFS told us to get the tank's nitrite's down and stabilized before adding any more fish to it.

Algae is just part of the fun Don't worry about it, unless you can't see through the glass. It sounds like your LFS is on top of things--QT tank, stablize main tank before adding more fish....

Should I go ahead and start the Kanamycin or wait to see if the septicemia goes away completely?

QT the ill fish, if you haven't already and treat right away.
Here are some diagnostic charts to help in the future:
http://www.aquatronicsonline.com/hobbyist/hobbyist3.htm
http://www.aqualink.com/disease/sdisease.html#ich
http://fish.mongabay.com/diseases.htm
http://www.everythingfishy.com/med_info.html
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/fishdisho.htm
http://www.fishpondinfo.com/health.htm

In addition, there is a great article on FW ich on this site--you may one day need it

 

[Muppeholic]

Here's a picture of the sick fish and healthy one. It definately seems the septicemia is going down some. You can't see it on the photo unfortunately.

(I've never posted pics before so I hope I did it right.)

 

[Menagerie]

It is hard to see much in the photo. I'm glad to see the fish is in QT and the illness is going away. I would still continue with treatment, give 24 hrs off with carbon in the filter to clear away other meds and treat with Kanamycin.

 

[Muppeholic]

Okey dokey. I'll put a new filter in the tank and let it run for 24 hours. I'll go out and get some Kanamycin today so I'm prepared. Thanks for the advice!

I've noticed that it appears the other angel is being nipped at. The dorsal fin looks healthy but shows extremely slight signs of damage near the tip. There seems to be no fraying but I know damage can precede fin rot. Is there anything I can put in the large tank that's not medicine to prevent fin rot?

 

[Menagerie]

The only thing I would try is Melafix. I usually use to in hopes of preventing secondary infections and for minor things. It will not stain the sealant and it is natural.

 

[Muppeholic]

Thanks.

I'm having difficulting finding Kanamycin at my local PetSmart. Is that a Brand name or the name of the ingredient? Could you let me know where you get it?

The PetSmart employee told me to do another round of Erythomycin or try Tetracycline or Triple Sulfa.

What is someone else's suggestion in case I can't find Kanamycin quickly?

Also, the QT Angelfish was very active this morning. I put the brine shrimp in (frozen) and it just swam all over the QT tank very quickly trying to eat it all up!

 

[Muppeholic]

I can't find Kanamycin at PetSmart. Is that the brand name or ingredient name? Where do you find it?

They're saying to either continue with Erythomycin or try Tetracycline or Triple Sulfa. What do you think?

 

[Muppeholic]

Sorry about the dupe posts above . . . still learning my way around the forum here.

I forgot to ask for 2nd opinions. PetSmart said that as lone as my 35 gal. hex's water has stabilized that it should be safe to buy another pleco. What do you guys think? Should I wait another week just to be sure? (It's only been stable for about 1 1/2 weeks at this point.)

 

[Menagerie]

They are selling things--wait it out!!
Kanamycin is the common name for that antibiotic. Check out this link: http://fishstoretn.com/kanamycin.html

 

[Muppeholic]

I just surfed on the net looking for Kanamycin. I found 2 local stores that carry it. The difference is 1 store's Kanamycin adds a little bit of sodium chloride in the capsule as well.

Which medication would be better for septicemia . . . the Kanamycin with or without the sodium chloride?

 

[Menagerie]

I have Seachem's KanaPlex and it says, "KansPlex is a blended kanamycin based medication that safely treats several fungal and bacterial fish diseases...." However, it does not say what it is blended with :?
I don't think it's going to matter. What matters is getting the fish on meds and getting it better ASAP!

 

[Muppeholic]

I started the Kanamycin yesterday. The PetSmart guy (who seemed really knowledgeable and claimed to have his own large tank . . . really confident about what he was saying) said to avoid any chance of mold developing on presoaked, medicated food to fix it up daily instead of all at once. He said to divide the medicine up in accordance with the size of my tank (2 gal), take a small amount of water from the tank to dissolve the medicine in, and then soak the food amount for that day in it for at least 5 minutes or until food is soft. He said that if the food was soft the fish would be less likely to spit it out. Since doing it this way the food does not soak up all the medicated water I've been pooring the excess into the tank hoping any extra medicine would get in the water.

Unfortunately, I forgot to ask how long I should do this and the packaging on the medicine doesn't tell me either. Do I do this for 5 days or 10?

Also, he suggested that if you have an activated carbon filter in the tank it can take the medicine out a lot sooner and the fish doesn't get the full effect. He suggested to take out the carbon filter, which we did. However, since the tank was just regaining it's bio-filter after the last medication round I'm concerned about ammonia/nitrite build up. We've been testing the water daily and this is what today's is:

Ammonia = 0 (fractionally above but still closer to 0); Nitrite = 0.25; pH = 7.2

Per directions on the medication package we've been doing a minor water change (25 percent) right before each dose of medicated food is added to the water.

The fish is active and has a good appetite. Still sporting darker stripes too! The only time the fish looks pale is when there is bright light. The only sign of septicemia I'm seeing now is along the spine area between the dorsal fin and top of the tail base. It looks kind of like what bloodshot eye vessels look like. The horizontal red line that went across the middle of the body is gone!

 

[Menagerie]

Sounds like things are going well. The directions on my meds say, "repeat every two days as required up to a max of 3 doses." We dosed longer than that with minor water changes. And since the ill fish was a pleco, the meds were added to the water.

 

[Muppeholic]

The Fish is doing a lot better. It's fins are almost completely healed now. It's very difficult to see any sign of septicemia. In fact my husband thinks I'm just seeing things when I say I still see a very faint red spot.

How long should I keep the sick fish in QT. (I'm assuming at least until the fins are 100% recovered.) I mean should I wait 1 additional week after all damage appears to be healed or what?

 

[Menagerie]

We were going to wait two weeks to ensure the bacterial infection was gone, but then another fish REALLY needed the QT tank. The pleco was put in a tank with only three Mollies for the remainder of the time--then put back into his original tank.
I strongly suggest at least a week in QT after the signs of redness are gone.