Substrate Experiment - Input Needed

[Mebbid]

So with all the threads discussing the best substrate I am interested in setting up a test of the different types. This won't happen for at least 2 months but I would like to get the details ironed out now and see if anyone else would like to join in on this.


My Plan:

1 - Set up a 55g tank with sectioned off types of substrate.
2 - Using a 4' flourescent light fixture over the tank. I would leave approx 6" of area without plants on either side to insure equal lighting. I could go with either High or Medium light. Which would you guys do?
3 - EI dosed fertilizers
4 - My DIY root tabs spaced out evenly throughout the entire planting zone. I would use Egg crate to make sure it's evenly placed. http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/mebbids-diy-root-tabs-308735.html
5 - I could go pressurized CO2 on this tank, but would rather do glut.
6 - Substrates - I figure 6" sections for each type of substrate would be sufficient for a test. That leaves us with 6 substrates to test. Which substrates would you guys choose?
7 - Plant types - I was thinking a mix of root feeders and stem plants just to test a variety. I would like to test 4 different plants for this so what would you guys attempt to use?

 

[icydeath]

It's late so I'm kinda tired and will revisit. Commented to sub haha

Anyways, I think high lighting would be good because higher lighting should put a higher demand on plants for nutrients for better growth. This in turn should exacerbate the differences in substrate quality.

I would do normal gravel, sand, 2 types of different plant sands, and 2 types of different plant gravels.

This way you can see gravel vs sand, then sand vs sand vs sand, and gravel vs gravel vs gravel. There is a possibility different aspects of plants would thrive better in the different substrates; ie redness, growth, color depth. This would be incredibly useful for people in the future making decisions on substrate because they could see the trade offs for gravel vs sand while taking into account how plants react and weight it against personal preferences. Then find which sand or gravel emphasizes what, or is just hands down better for that type of plant. This is going to have to be incredibly diligent though because you may have to try a few species of plants at a time to see how each gravel affects plants differently. A biotope set up of plants would favor this because you can start to make generalizations such as "amazons prefer x, while asians prefer y"

Great idea!

 

[icydeath]

Your supplements won't be that important with this because as long as all the plants get it and are growing there won't be a competitive edge given. So taking this into account you could just use whatever supplements complement the plants or any old general supplement.

 

[azmodan]

Gravel, sand, eco complete, flourite, ADA Aqua soil (and possibly other similar soil type substrates), Activflora, and safe t sorb (or a similar montmorillonite clay product) I'd consider essential for this experiment.

 

[ImACoolguy]

Gravel, sand, eco complete, flourite, ADA Aqua soil (and possibly other similar soil type substrates), Activflora, and safe t sorb (or a similar montmorillonite clay product) I'd consider essential for this experiment.

And Floromax as well. It's commonly sold on the shelf around here as a planted substrate.

Start saving lol some of these are not cheap especially in the ADA.


Caleb

 

[Bichir Bro]

Brookster uses the Brightwell stuff, might want to possibly use it too? Plus it's 1776% made in America.


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[sinibotia]

I would take flow strongly into account. You don't want uneven distribution of dissolved nutrients to give false results.Keep the tank in a dark room where the only light is the light from the tank, so that ambient light doesn't affect growth. Just my scientific $.02

 

[Mebbid]

And Floromax as well. It's commonly sold on the shelf around here as a planted substrate.

Start saving lol some of these are not cheap especially in the ADA.


Caleb

Haha yeah, that's why it's not gonna happen for a few months. I'll have a very nice paying job by then and it wont be an issue

I would take flow strongly into account. You don't want uneven distribution of dissolved nutrients to give false results.Keep the tank in a dark room where the only light is the light from the tank, so that ambient light doesn't affect growth. Just my scientific $.02

That's a good point. Does anyone have any suggestions about the best way to set up flow for this?

 

[Brookster123]

Brightwell is def. a good candidate here.. cheap and local on dr.foster.

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[sinibotia]

Haha yeah, that's why it's not gonna happen for a few months. I'll have a very nice paying job by then and it wont be an issue



That's a good point. Does anyone have any suggestions about the best way to set up flow for this?

Depends on how crazy-scientific you want to be. If you wanna go nuts, use some (safe) dye and see if you can't perfect your water flow so there are no areas of higher or lower concentration. If you just want to be thorough, I would have a set of small HOBs along the back of the tank, one for each section, so that each area is getting roughly the same water flow and the entire tank has plenty of water movement.

 

[coralbandit]

Dividers X inches below surface for flow and circulation.
No ferts.
Same plants in each section.
Possibly a small circulation pump in each section to move water efficiently(fairly).


IMO adding ferts would/will skew what the sub can do for plants which is the point?
Most can grow plants in PFS with ferts added to watercolumn(PPS or EI).
No co2 no ferts ,glut is fair if circulation is fair.
Laterite?
Blasting sand?
Sounds like a great idea(experiment)..

 

[Mebbid]

Dividers X inches below surface for flow and circulation.
No ferts.
Same plants in each section.
Possibly a small circulation pump in each section to move water efficiently(fairly).


IMO adding ferts would/will skew what the sub can do for plants which is the point?
Most can grow plants in PFS with ferts added to watercolumn(PPS or EI).
No co2 no ferts ,glut is fair if circulation is fair.
Laterite?
Blasting sand?
Sounds like a great idea(experiment)..

Well, part of this that i would like to learn is that plant subatrates are beneficial for plants over inert substrates. If fertilizers skew the results, lets say inert sand and aquasoil grow plants the same way then that would go a long way towards telling us the importance of substrates vs appropriate fertilizer regimen.

 

[coralbandit]

Then like sini said to be scientific how could we tell if the "aqua soil"(for example) did not leach "nutrients" and "contaminate" the other sections?
I think the one tank,one light,one water source is huge on control issues for accurate test, but what about leaching and contamination???

 

[bcarl_10gal]

Tom Barr did an study on this too. I dont have the link but dig around on the barr report and see if you can find it. His conclusion was dirt cap and aqua soil were the best.


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[Mebbid]

Then like sini said to be scientific how could we tell if the "aqua soil"(for example) did not leach "nutrients" and "contaminate" the other sections?
I think the one tank,one light,one water source is huge on control issues for accurate test, but what about leaching and contamination???

I would silicone dividers in place. This would keep any nutrients from leeching between the different types of substrate.

Another big problem with not using fertilizers in a tank such as this is that substrates such as Eco Complete don't come with any fertilizers in the substrate. Instead, it's a high CEC substrate to absorb available ferts and store it. Without added fertilization it would be just as effective as sand or gravel ( I would assume) until the substrate got seeded with some sort of nutrient.

Tom Barr did an study on this too. I dont have the link but dig around on the barr report and see if you can find it. His conclusion was dirt cap and aqua soil were the best.


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I did a bit of searching, sadly I couldn't find anything on it.

 

[Mebbid]

Do you guys think having fish in a tank such as this would be a good idea or bad idea?

I am leaning towards bad idea, if the fish tend to congregate around a specific area then it could potentially skew the results.

 

[ImACoolguy]

Do you guys think having fish in a tank such as this would be a good idea or bad idea?



I am leaning towards bad idea, if the fish tend to congregate around a specific area then it could potentially skew the results.

You could try a top dweller like hatchet fish. That way they are not all hiding in certain spots.


Caleb

 

[Reefer James]

Maxspect Gyre Generator. Can go as low as 50 GPH. Just kind of expensive for this haha

 

[Caliban07]

Hi all

Mebbid first of all.

How are you determining what is best? Best plant growth? Least algae? Best looking? Fish colour? Lower nitrates? Length if effectiveness? Cost? Etc.

If it is just a short term experiment strictly for plant growth then I would say that some of the substrates may provoke more algae under the same conditions which may induce fiercer competition between plants and algae. If you are happy to say that because of this X substrate is poor then that's fair enough but that substrate without EI may not promote algae and turn out to be the best.

Flow is important but less so if all experiments receive the same flow. As long as all parameters are kept the same it doesn't matter.

What I would be tempted to do is run two experiments focussing firstly on manufacture substrates without EI or carbon. That would be a really cool experiment and would help many low techies. Then you could run sand vs gravel with glut and EI and see which grows better.

Once we know which is the best in both experiments we should know which would be the best substrate combination for a complete low tech tank ie eco complete with sand cap.

Once you have the low tech tanks set up the same and have determined the best low tech setup you could then begin to INTRODUCE an EI regime plus carbon and see which tank responds best or which tank improves the most.

This way you are kind of killing two birds with one stone.

Just my two pence worth.


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[Caliban07]

Is this still going ahead?


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