That's why you rinse filters in old tank water

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I take it to mean the you believe the right course to take is to fill the tank with chlorinated water (with the Python) and then add the dechlorinator to the whole tank? And how much?
I think you misunderstood, that's exactly the opposite of what I said :)

Any chlorinated water entering the tank is bad, and adding treatment directly to the tank should only be done in emergency situations. IMHO The best and safest method is to put the tap water aside, treat it seperately, wait for the termperature to equalize and then add it in slowly to the tank.
 
I do as the others and add water to the tank via Python then add dechlor. I have never had an issue with cloudiness or harming the fish. In fact, some of my fish love to swim in the stream of new water.

In our established tanks I do not use tank water when cleaning the filters. It's direct tap. Typically the kitchen sink. I've never had a mini cycle as a result of this. Perhaps it is because the tank has been cycled for years.
 
Telek- When using a Python you adjust the tmep to match the tank temp. SO the water entering the tank is the same temp.
 
I do as the others and add water to the tank via Python then add dechlor. I have never had an issue with cloudiness or harming the fish. In fact, some of my fish love to swim in the stream of new water.

In our established tanks I do not use tank water when cleaning the filters. It's direct tap. Typically the kitchen sink. I've never had a mini cycle as a result of this. Perhaps it is because the tank has been cycled for years.

When using a Python you adjust the tmep to match the tank temp. SO the water entering the tank is the same temp.

Well hey, if it is working for you then don't fix it... but that doesn't mean that it is the best way to do it. :) To exaggerate my point: Smoking is fun with little short-term effects but it will likely kill you in the long run.

Using anything other than cold water from the tap is also hazardous - there are more dissolved metals in hot water than cold water. For example the cold water out of my tap tests for TDS at 170ppm and 5.5C. Hot water tests at 210ppm and 55C. That's 40ppm of pure metals, most of which are copper. Some species of fish are tolerant, but it's the same deal as smoking: it does reduce their lifespan. For this reason it is safer for aquarium use (and your own food preparation too!) to only use cold water from the tap. If you need to raise the temp then boil some water, which has added benefits of removing chlorine and a few other impurities in the water as well. In fact some people boil tap water, treat it, let it cool, then add it to the tank. This is impractical for any but the smallest water changes, but it is the best method for using tap water.
 
There are many different ways to perform tank maintenance. What works for some may not work for others. There is no "only" way to do anthing when it comes to aquaria. I know that a lot of members do the same thing that I do and have great success. We all have different opinions and that's what makes this site so great.
 
There are many different ways to perform tank maintenance. What works for some may not work for others. There is no "only" way to do anthing when it comes to aquaria. I know that a lot of members do the same thing that I do and have great success. We all have different opinions and that's what makes this site so great.
Oh I absolutely agree, and I apologize if I came across that way. That's why I said "if it works for you then don't fix it". However just because a way "works" doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement if you so desire.
 
I think you misunderstood, that's exactly the opposite of what I said :)

Any chlorinated water entering the tank is bad, and adding treatment directly to the tank should only be done in emergency situations. IMHO The best and safest method is to put the tap water aside, treat it seperately, wait for the termperature to equalize and then add it in slowly to the tank.

I totally agree, and if you look at my previous post NOT directed to you, I said basically the same thing.


But at this point, I believe the question had turend towards those who have already made the [bad] desicion to refill the tank directly from the tap with a Python.

So for thoses who have decided their lives are too busy to take the time to do it "right" (and I now count myself among those) what is the best way to add the dechlorinator GIVEN that you are going to refill the tank directly from the tap with a Python?

So far, my reasoning has been to add just enough dechlorinator for the water you are going to add, and add it to the tank BEFORE you begin to refill the tank. That way, the dechlorinator is already present as you refill the tank and therefore minimize the time chlorinated water is in the tank.

Based on your suggestions, I would now add that the dechlorinator should be added in such a way that it quickly disperses through the tank to minimize the chance a fish swims through an water with concentrated levels of dechlorinator. To accomplish this, you could either pour/drip the dechlorinator near the output of your filter, dilute it in a bowl before you use it to fill the tank, or even pour/drip the dechlorinator directly into the Python "wand" (but you would have to make sure the way you refill the tank washes all the dechlorinator out of the wand).
 
I don't believe that filling a tank with the Python is the wrong way to fill a tank. It's not that my life is too busy to dechlorinate first, it's that there is nothing wrong with adding the water via Python then dechlorinating.
 
I don't believe that filling a tank with the Python is the wrong way to fill a tank. It's not that my life is too busy to dechlorinate first, it's that there is nothing wrong with adding the water via Python then dechlorinating.

It's not so much that it is "wrong". It's just that it is not "best practice". After all, Telek has pointed out some of the dangers of filling a tank directly from the tap (some I had not realized myself).

So before someone decides to fill their tank strait from the tap with a Python, they should consider take these dangers into consideration.

So when you have a very mature tank an you are only doing say 10% PWC, then refilling from the Python is NOT a big deal. But for someone who recently started up a new tank, and is doing a 50% water change, they have to consider the down sides of filling from the tap directly.

After all, you've already pointed out a difference in your setup and mine. You say you rinse your filters strait from the tap and don't see a mini-cycle. I, on the other hand, have a tank that is less than 6 months old, and a filter that is even younger. Yet me performing the same actions as you caused a mini-cycle in my tank.


So I would say "Valid points from everyone", keep them comming, and I'm still waiting for some more opinions on the "best" way to add dechlorinator for those of us using Pythons.
 
So for thoses who have decided their lives are too busy to take the time to do it "right" (and I now count myself among those) what is the best way to add the dechlorinator GIVEN that you are going to refill the tank directly from the tap with a Python?

I don't believe that filling a tank with the Python is the wrong way to fill a tank. It's not that my life is too busy to dechlorinate first, it's that there is nothing wrong with adding the water via Python then dechlorinating.

There are several dangers with filling directly with tap water including overdosing fish with treatment and allowing chlorine to enter the tank at all. Part of the problem to consider is that unless the treatment you are using is ONLY for dechlorination then it may be consumed between the time it enters the tank and you add the tap water.

For example the Prime stuff that I used to use not only dechlorinates but also takes care of nitrites, so by adding it directly to the tank (which can be done in emergencies) it will be consumed in the process of removing the nitrites, reducing the amount available to dechlorinate. Not only does this allow chlorine to enter the tank but also messes up the nitrogen bacteria cycle by artificially removing nitrites which will cause some bacterial die-off.

I'd suggest using a 5 gallon jug (I use the type that you get for water coolers since they're essentially free) and mixing the water there, then pouring into the tank. It only adds a few minutes to the process and really is much better for the tank overall.

[Soapbox/rant/holier-than-thou mode on]
I don't mean to come off sounding arrogant or rude, but please let me add a disclaimer here: In my day I have seen a staggering number of pets who were insufficiently cared for by their (usually ignorant) owners. It's really heartbreaking to see a clownfish kept in a 2 gallon bowl with nothing more than an aerator just because their kid loved the movie Finding Nemo or a turtle raised in a 5 gallon tank for years with barely enough water to get their face wet and no UV lighting. I am not suggesting that using tap water is in any way tantamount to this sort of torture, but as a pet owner you are solely responsible for your pets' wellbeing and laziness is not an excuse for improper care. If your life is really so busy that you are unwilling to spend a few minutes extra to ensure proper care then perhaps you should reevaluate your decision to have the pet in the first place.
[Soapbox mode off]

Having said all that, if you want to directly use tap water then I think the best method would be to take a small container full of tank water, dillute a larger dose than normal into it and then add it back into the tank prior to adding the tap water in. Alternately adding the treatment directly into the python line could also work, as the water flow will get it all into the tank rather quickly.

Again, I'm not trying to suggest that anything that you are doing is inherently bad, but if it only takes a few minutes extra then why not do it right? :)
 
I guess it just depends on what you think is right. IMO, the way I do it is jus as good as any other way. In your opinion, your way is right. In the end, it's a matter of opinion. We all have our own way of doing things.
 
I guess it just depends on what you think is right. IMO, the way I do it is jus as good as any other way. In your opinion, your way is right. In the end, it's a matter of opinion. We all have our own way of doing things.

I would argue that it is not a "matter of opinion". Instead, I would argue that what Telek is advocating (precondition the water before adding it to the tank) and what I am warning (rinse filter in conditioned water, not tap water) are "best practices", while your methods (using a Python and rinsing filters in tap water) are "good enough"... for your situation!

In otherwords, following "best practices" will put the least stress on the fish and are safe practices for all users (everything from newbies cycling tanks to seasoned fish keepers with tanks that have been set up for years).

But "good enough" means that it's a safe practice depending upon the situation.


Once again, case in point of rinsing the filter in tap water. In your opinion, it is a perfectly safe thing to do. After all, it doesn't appear to put any stress on your fish and your tank doesn't go through a mini-cycle when you rinse your filter in your tap water. But when I did the exact same thing to my filters in my tap water, it was NOT perfectly safe. My tank went through a mini-cycle rinsing my filter your way.


And I would further argue that this is exactly why we all participate in these forums. So that we can learn from each other and share our knowledge.

Hopefully because of this discusion, someone new to fish keeping will read what happens to each of us and will decide that at first, they should follow "best practices". Once they get some experience at fish keeping, they can begin to ease off of "best practices" and slowly transition to "good enough" because "good enough" is a lot simpler than "best practices".

Not only that, but in the long run "good enough" might be better for the fish than "best practices". The reason? "Good enough" is easier to do and therefore a fish keeper is more likely to mantain their tank with "good enough", while the fish keeper that continues to do "best practices" doesn't do them as often as they should and their fish suffer because of it.


So for me, the bottom line to Fishyfanatic is that I do not think you need to change your ways. It works good enough for your tank. But newbies need to better understand the dynamics of fish keeping as well as the potential negative side effects of your practices when they are just STARTING.
 
I completly agree with you Hook. That's why I stated that there are many ways to do things and everyone has their own opinion. My way works for me and many others. But it may not work for you. In Aquaria nothing is concrete, everything is up for change or debate. That is what is great about AA, we can all share our way of doing things.
 
I have my own questions and comments :)
Comments first. I do rinse in tank water AND use a Python. When I need to rinse a filter it is a simple matter to scoop out enough water with my tank only plastic cup into my tank only 5 gallon bucket prior to using the Python on the rest. Since the 5 gallon bucket is ONLY for aquarium use and is throroughly cleaned when used I have no worry about any possible contaminants.
The questions considering that I do use a Python and Do add water directly with never a problem whatsoever.
1. I understand that the low levels of chlorine in tap water (less than 1ppm from my tap) can kill bacteria, is it really not safe for fish? (its safe for us to drink) Do low levels of chlorine harm fish or do we dechlorinate to protect our bacteria?
2. Is the dechlorinator harmfull to our fish if they happen to swim through a brief concentration? (mine always do and again I have seen no ill effects)
These two points were stated as fact earlier (and in other threads) are they really? Has there been any research done on this?
 
I completly agree with you Hook. That's why I stated that there are many ways to do things and everyone has their own opinion. My way works for me and many others. But it may not work for you. In Aquaria nothing is concrete, everything is up for change or debate. That is what is great about AA, we can all share our way of doing things.
I think Hook was arguing semantically about your use of the word 'right'.

The method that you are using has it's disadvantages and problems that we have pointed out, but you have decided that it's 'good enough'. If that's what you mean by 'right' then we're all in agreement :)

The point we're trying to make is that putting tap water directly directly into your tank has it's dangers, than thus we cannot consider it 'right' or 'correct', but if you decide that is good enough for you then who are we to argue :)
 
1. I understand that the low levels of chlorine in tap water (less than 1ppm from my tap) can kill bacteria, is it really not safe for fish? (its safe for us to drink) Do low levels of chlorine harm fish or do we dechlorinate to protect our bacteria?

Let's say that I am 150 pounds and consume 1 pound of chlorinated tap water a day. My fish are 0.1 pounds and live in 900 pounds of water. It's like comparing apples and mufflers. We can grow an immunity to poisons like cyanide over time because the ratio of consumption to body weight is so small, but for fish the situation is several orders of magnitude different.

2. Is the dechlorinator harmfull to our fish if they happen to swim through a brief concentration? (mine always do and again I have seen no ill effects)
Unfortunately that's like asking "is smoking a single cigarette going to give me cancer" or "is living near that factory going to harm me"?

In more general terms regardless of the answer empirical evidence shows that repeated and long term exposure has a high risk factor. It's the same for chlorine in your tank. Is one dose going to cause a tangible problem that you can quantify? No. Is repeated long term exposure guaranteed to kill your fish? No. It depends on the fish and a host of other environmental factors, but the fact is that the risk of negative effects is greatly increased. Can you go for 20 years using tap water without having any problems in your tank? Quite possibly, but then again you can smoke every day for 20 years and not have any bad effects either.
 
Just as my method may have disadvantages, so does yours. For me to do a water change on my 150, 55, and 29 gal tank, I would need enough drums to contain 117 gal. I would need a 75 gal drum in the basement and a 42 gal drum in the living room. Not feasible. I would also have to bucket the water from the tank to the drain. Again, not feasible considering health conditions unless I wanted to fill a pitcher at a time. I have been using the Python for 5 years and have never had a single death attributed to my method. My fish spawn reguarly and their color is bright and beautiful. So IMO, given the success I have had with my fish and plants, my way of water changing is right for me. It may not be right for you, but your way is not right for me either. That is what I was saying in my post. I don't think we need to get into a debate on the semantics of the word "right" because as I have stated previously, it is all a matter of opinion. I h ave not seen a study done that indicates temporary exposure to low levels of chlorine is hazardous to fish. Have you found one that has? If so I'd like to read it because I am curious on the subject.
 
Let's say that I am 150 pounds and consume 1 pound of chlorinated tap water a day. My fish are 0.1 pounds and live in 900 pounds of water.
The fish do not consume 900 pounds of water. In fact I would expect that it would only be exposed to very limited amount of chlorine if any at all before the dechlorinator does its job.
You have repeatedly compared small amounts of chlorine during water changes and concentrated wiffs of declorinator to smoking.
We know smoking is dangerous and does indeed cause many diseases but I haven't seen any reports that small amounts of chlorine, no matter how often repeated or for that matter dechlorinator has any harmfull effects whatsoever. Perhaps you are comparing apples to mufflers as well.
 
keeping the same carbon filter is a bad idea. they should be changed every 2 months. so much dirt and poop builds up on them its disgusting. the bacteria live in your bio filter. by keeping the filter you just let the poop it sucked up before back in.

I don't use carbon at all unless I have used medicines and want to filter the meds out. I've read that carbon also removes the ferts and I don't want that at all.
I also use the filter mesh till it's falling apart. I have several elements for my Marineland HOB. I just take the dirty one outside and hose it down into the flowerbed, then set it aside to dry. I use a dry one in the filter.

On my AC filter, I just rinse the sponges and bio media in old tank water and put it back in.

In my XP 2, I rinse the sponges and Rena Starz in old tank water and either replace the pillow stuffing or rinse it as well.

No carbon at all.
Charles
 
I have been using the Python for 5 years and have never had a single death attributed to my method.


Thanks!

I just bought a python and was starting to worry ..........


It seemed to work great the last two water changes, so I appreciate your input!


Dave
 
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