The Diatoms Persist...Please Advise

[fort384]

Diatoms are common in newer tanks, and unfortunately you might not ever completely rid yourself of them. I agree that reducing available nutrients can help significantly. What kind of light and what kind of duration are you using/have you tried?

Also, I have found that increasing flow/current in the tank can help out. Even with everything right, you will still probably have some in your tank. The key is regular consistent maintenance to keep them to a minimum.

Based on your picture above, I would say there are some nutrient issues a/o lighting issues going on with the tank that would significantly contribute to the problem. The yellowing/dieing of leaf edges and tips is a sure indication that all is not well...

 

[hdultra]

I feel you pains as I was going through the same thing. I did research on the subject. This is what I did to help the problem go away so far they have not returned. I know you read my other post regarding Diatoms. There are things you can do to limit the growth.
As in my other post Diatoms are usually in newly cycled aquariums.
Diatoms will sometimes disappear as quickly as they arrived.

I went on a mission to reduce the levels of diatoms in my tank. It was not a cheap cure and so far they are not to be seen.

Filtration will help allot with diatoms. Water flow in the tank will help the diatoms from sticking on decor and on the glass. But is not a cure. Silicates are present in my tap water as well as phosphate PO4 and Nitrates. To take care of the contaminates in the water I bought the (API) Tap water filter. The water filter removes the things that cause diatoms. It's not cheap for sure but it work's. I'm sure there are cheaper ways to do this. May have to call the Culligan Man.

Another thing I was doing wrong was leaving my hood light on for to long. They were on for 12 to 14 hours a day. Now there on for only 8 to 10 hours. And I put them on a timer.

Substrates: Some substrates have silicate in them and will also promote diatoms.

When cycling our tanks our water has high levels of organic carbon and No2, and low levels of No3 and Po4. They say that diatoms thrive in these condition's. Also Iodines cause brown algae. Some of the products we put into our tanks have it in the chemical mix.

Way to Slow or Stop Diatoms

Manual removal is one way. Diatoms do not have a firm attachment to the things they are found on. So they will clean off semi easily. Good way to control growth is to remove as much as you can during water changes as you can. So do that and wipe them off.

Remove silicates from you water. Silicates above 3-4 ppm will cause persistent diatoms. Do what you can to limit silicates in your water. Filtration is the best way to do that. RO (Reverse Osmosis) instead of tap water will help big time.
There are products to remove silicates such as Seachems PhosGuard or Kent's Phosphate Sponge.

You have live plants that should help you all also.

Helpful animals will help such as: Otocinclus catfish, /snails like Ramshorns or Olive nerites. They also say that some shrimp like to eat it as well.

Source of info:
See more at AquariumsLife.com | Fresh & Saltwater Information, Fish Profile, Algae Control, Equipment Reviews, Aquarium Directory, Right Now Bacteria There is information available for reading. It would have been alot easier if I could have copied and pasted but that's against AA rules as I'm still learning the rules. So i put into my own words and practiced what I have learned. I think the results are favorable that the diatoms will not return.

I hope this was helpful. Please let me know if I missed anything guys.
Fort was my teacher. He has great knowledge on this subject as well. Thanks Fort my tank looks so awesome right now. It is crystal clear.

 

[Fishies86]

I could be wrong, but I think that's just an old leaf and that's why it's yellowing. I've got a 15 watt bulb on my 10 gallon tank. I've had the flow on my tank turned right up, but it made the fish swim at an awkward angle, so I turned it right down but they got really lethargic so I turned it bcd up again.
I think I may have had such a problem with diatoms to start with because I had such a battle keeping my nitrites down when cycling my tank. Hoping they'll stop popping up so often now it's cycled and the plants are using up the nitrates.

 

[hdultra]

Here are my before and afters.

Look at the white reefy part left with diatoms. Today (right) it still looks the same with no growth. We see how well it work's.

 

[Osage_Winter]

It seems that some tap water may cause this. Also the wrong lighting or many nitrates or phosphates in the water. Try using water from a different source and see how that goes.

Goldfish are messy fish and they could also be the cause if the right filtration is not in place. As to Otocinclus mixing with Goldfish, I wouldn't do it since goldfish are cold water fish unlike Otocinclus who are tropical water fish.

Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium

Okay...let me begin addressing everyone's input here, beginning with Aqua7...

If my tap water is causing this, what do I do?

With regard to lighting, I am running a fluorescent strip light above the tank, sitting on glass tops, but I don't use the lights all that often I would say -- just to feed the fish and look at them a bit in the evenings.

You mentioned using water from a "different source," but how do I go about that?

As for the goldfish, I realize they're considered "messy" in terms of species (never really understood that reference, but...) but we do have plenty of filtration on this tank -- if you see in my signature, we are running two filters, an Aqueon QuietFlow 55 and an AquaClear 110, good for moving over 800 gallons per hour...do you really think this problem can be in the filtration?

With regard to the catfish, I've been told this before, about the fact that they're tropical and the goldies aren't, but do you really think the catfish couldn't survive in high-68 degree temperatures?

 

[Osage_Winter]

Here is a picture of my diatoms, taken looking straight down into the tank. There's not much at the moment because I cleaned it all off with a toothbrush a few days ago. You can see it on the cave (which is a purpley bluish green colour) and on the leaves of the purple plant (which I'm fairly sure is not aquatic :/ )
Is it anything like yours?

Thanks Fishies -- I appreciate the photo!

Indeed, this looks like my diatoms, albeit more "grainy" in appearance than the ones in our tank; ours are just crawling all over everything...the plant edges, the gravel, the decor...

 

[Osage_Winter]

They just need less nutrients. Whether they are getting that from you overfeeding or from something in the water supply I don't know.

You will never get rid of them completely, I certainly can't, but I reduced them by feeding my fish less. They only grow a little bit now and I just clean the glass.

Thanks, Tim...although this is a bit of disheartening news, that I won't get rid of them completely.

I have been told, exhaustively in fact, about the overfeeding factor -- but I have reduced feeding to once a day instead of twice a day, and that doesn't seem to make a difference. The diatoms came back even stronger this second time around compared to the first, taking about a week to return and now they're even growing on the glass, as yours do.

Why won't these go away completely? I mean, there will NEVER be a time that they just die off and you don't see them again? Will they ever detatch from the ornaments and plants by themselves without me having to scrub them off constantly?

Is there anything else I could do in terms of the feeding schedule reduction? I have gone down to once a day, as I said, but should I be doing even less?

 

[Osage_Winter]

Diatoms are common in newer tanks, and unfortunately you might not ever completely rid yourself of them. I agree that reducing available nutrients can help significantly.

But why is there a chance that they will NEVER disappear? Why is this? It's a difficult pill to swallow, because they make my tank look absolutely DISGUSTING. Plus, my tank isn't really "new" per se, unless being set up for about five or so months is considered "new"...

How do I go about reducing available nutrients?

What kind of light and what kind of duration are you using/have you tried?

Per my signature, I am running an Aqueon fluorescent strip light above the tank, sitting on dual glass tops. The lighting is on just for feeding and watching, around approximately three hours a day on average, sometimes less...

Also, I have found that increasing flow/current in the tank can help out. Even with everything right, you will still probably have some in your tank. The key is regular consistent maintenance to keep them to a minimum.

There is a RIDICULOUS amount of flow and current in our tank -- believe me. Extreme amounts, in fact, from two waterfall filters and a massive bubble wall running on the back of the tank.

Based on your picture above, I would say there are some nutrient issues a/o lighting issues going on with the tank that would significantly contribute to the problem. The yellowing/dieing of leaf edges and tips is a sure indication that all is not well...

That wasn't my picture...

 

[Osage_Winter]

Thanks so much HD -- I truly appreciate the lengthy input here. Let me address each of your points directly, as I think we're getting someplace now...

I feel you pains as I was going through the same thing. I did research on the subject. This is what I did to help the problem go away so far they have not returned. I know you read my other post regarding Diatoms. There are things you can do to limit the growth.
As in my other post Diatoms are usually in newly cycled aquariums.
Diatoms will sometimes disappear as quickly as they arrived.

Okay -- so they're common in newly cycled aquariums, so is it possible my tank is beginning to actually cycle, five months into setup? I wish they would disappear as quickly as they arrived, on their own, but they actually came back stronger and more aggressively after I cleaned them out the first time...

Filtration will help allot with diatoms. Water flow in the tank will help the diatoms from sticking on decor and on the glass. But is not a cure.

I was discussing this with the member before you; we are running two rather large filters on a medium-sized 60 gallon aquarium -- an Aqueon QuietFlow 55 and an AquaClear 110, both good for moving over 800 something gallons per hour combined. Would you say this is inadequate filtration? There is PLENTY of water flow in this tank -- between the two filters' waterfall returns and the bubble walls on the back glass, the current and movement in the tank is ridiculous.

Silicates are present in my tap water as well as phosphate PO4 and Nitrates. To take care of the contaminates in the water I bought the (API) Tap water filter. The water filter removes the things that cause diatoms. It's not cheap for sure but it work's. I'm sure there are cheaper ways to do this. May have to call the Culligan Man.

I am beginning to suspect our tap water as well, as the diatoms came back almost immediately after removing them and topping off the tank with fresh (dechlorinated) water. Can you give me some more information about the API tap water filter? How expensive are we talking here?

Another thing I was doing wrong was leaving my hood light on for to long. They were on for 12 to 14 hours a day. Now there on for only 8 to 10 hours. And I put them on a timer.

I am running a fluorescent strip light over the tank, without real plants, and I only have the lights on maybe three or so hours a day...would this affect diatoms?

Substrates: Some substrates have silicate in them and will also promote diatoms.

Are you suggesting that perhaps my GRAVEL is causing these?

When cycling our tanks our water has high levels of organic carbon and No2, and low levels of No3 and Po4. They say that diatoms thrive in these condition's. Also Iodines cause brown algae. Some of the products we put into our tanks have it in the chemical mix.

This comes back to the possibility that my tank is STILL cycling, or nearing completion...but this is FIVE MONTHS later...

Way to Slow or Stop Diatoms

Manual removal is one way. Diatoms do not have a firm attachment to the things they are found on. So they will clean off semi easily. Good way to control growth is to remove as much as you can during water changes as you can. So do that and wipe them off.

Okay -- I did this the first time, as me and my wife removed all decor from the tank and physically washed each piece down with hot water to remove the diatoms. But I don't want to go through this again every time they pop up, as this was BACK BREAKING work.

Remove silicates from you water. Silicates above 3-4 ppm will cause persistent diatoms. Do what you can to limit silicates in your water. Filtration is the best way to do that. RO (Reverse Osmosis) instead of tap water will help big time.

Okay -- I am beginning to suspect that the silicates are the culprit here, and my tap water must be loaded with them. You say filtration is the best way to control this, but again, I am running two fairly large filters on this 60 gallon...do I actually need MORE? With regard to RO -- how does this work in comparison to tap water? How do I go about using RO water instead of my tap?

There are products to remove silicates such as Seachems PhosGuard or Kent's Phosphate Sponge.

I didn't know this -- this sounds like a possibility. I was looking for something I could just add to the tank to make this easier; does the Seachem product just dump into the water, or is it a "filter" of some kind? And what about the sponge?

You have live plants that should help you all also.

I don't have live plants. All are fake. I didn't want our goldfish eating all the real plants!

Helpful animals will help such as: Otocinclus catfish, /snails like Ramshorns or Olive nerites. They also say that some shrimp like to eat it as well.

But I have been advised that catfish will not mix with goldfish...

I hope this was helpful. Please let me know if I missed anything guys.
Fort was my teacher. He has great knowledge on this subject as well. Thanks Fort my tank looks so awesome right now. It is crystal clear.

Indeed, this was very helpful -- thanks so much again for posting this. I look forward to your feedback, and I will do some research on those products you mentioned.

 

[Osage_Winter]

UPDATE!

Based on the suggestion of looking into Seachem's PhosGuard, I found this:

Amazon.com: Seachem PhosGuard 1 Liter: Home & Garden

It seems like this may be exactly what I need to get these silicates out of my water -- but because it's sold as "beads" that need to go into some kind of bag for entering the filter system, do I need to buy something like this: ?

Amazon.com: Seachem The Bag - 180 Micron - 5 in. x 9 1/2 in.: Kitchen & Dining

Does the PhosGuard need a "filter bag" like this, or something else? Are there prepackaged ones like Seachem does with their Purigen, where the pack can just drop into the filter?

 

[Osage_Winter]

Thanks, everyone, for your assistance on this thus far!

 

[Tim Wheatley]

Thanks, Tim...although this is a bit of disheartening news, that I won't get rid of them completely.

I have been told, exhaustively in fact, about the overfeeding factor -- but I have reduced feeding to once a day instead of twice a day, and that doesn't seem to make a difference. The diatoms came back even stronger this second time around compared to the first, taking about a week to return and now they're even growing on the glass, as yours do.

Why won't these go away completely? I mean, there will NEVER be a time that they just die off and you don't see them again? Will they ever detatch from the ornaments and plants by themselves without me having to scrub them off constantly?

Is there anything else I could do in terms of the feeding schedule reduction? I have gone down to once a day, as I said, but should I be doing even less?

Well they need three things:
Food, slow moving water and light.

If you have reduced food, you can reduce the amount of time you have your lights on and can increase water flow. Another time I had brown algae real bad was when I hadn't changed my replaceable media in my filters for too long. They had clogged up, water flow had decreased and the algae were able to grow easier. You could try changing the replaceable part of your filter (or rinsing it out - OUTSIDE OF THE TANK - in tank water), or buying a powerhead to blow water around.

 

[hdultra]

Diatoms

Thanks so much HD -- I truly appreciate the lengthy input here. Let me address each of your points directly, as I think we're getting someplace now...



Okay -- so they're common in newly cycled aquariums, so is it possible my tank is beginning to actually cycle, five months into setup? I wish they would disappear as quickly as they arrived, on their own, but they actually came back stronger and more aggressively after I cleaned them out the first time...

hdultra: My understanding that a cycled tank, is that the water parameters are safe for the fish. As to were ammonia levels and nitrite levels are dissolved by beneficial bacteria turning into nitrates. Being Ammonia and Nitrites. And frequent water changes to keep the nitrates in check. No were did I read why they disappeared on there own. I get back into reading on that. But there are measures we can take to slow the progress of them. I'm currently taking all my study's of the subject and seeing if any of it works. But it's going to take time to see if the little brown (diatoms) re appear.
_________________________________________________________________

I was discussing this with the member before you; we are running two rather large filters on a medium-sized 60 gallon aquarium -- an Aqueon QuietFlow 55 and an AquaClear 110, both good for moving over 800 something gallons per hour combined. Would you say this is inadequate filtration? There is PLENTY of water flow in this tank -- between the two filters' waterfall returns and the bubble walls on the back glass, the current and movement in the tank is ridiculous.

hdultra: Filtering is one thing, while water flow is another.
Filtration
This is were you hear the term (Mechanical Filtration) Mechanical Filtration collects the solid fish waste , uneaten food and particulate matter from decorations, live rock etc. These filters really only collect the solid waste.
And also they host Beneficial Bacteria.
I have two Marineland 280's the have two slots for media. I slot (1) I put in the carbon filter. In slot (2) I put in a polishing pad to collect the very fine particles. It's like running a Hepa vacuum for water. I hoping it will collect the unattached diatoms in the water. JMO

External Canister Filter
And also I installed a Fluval 405.
Media selection is Bin (1).Carbon, Bin (2) Pre -filter Media and Nitrite And nitrate collection media Bin (3) Biomax For Beneficial Bacteria Bin (4) Ceramic Filter media and polishing pads.

Water Flow
Water flow is exactly as it say water flow. That say that good water flow through the tank will reduce the diatoms from clinging in the decor and other surfaces in a aquariums. To much water flow can stress the fish. So we must use caution with to much water flow. In other words you don't want you little fish swimming in the rushing Colorado River. For water flow I have the 2 Marinelands and (1) Fluval 405 I am hoping this is enough water flow well see.


I am beginning to suspect our tap water as well, as the diatoms came back almost immediately after removing them and topping off the tank with fresh (dechlorinated) water. Can you give me some more information about the API tap water filter? How expensive are we talking here?

hdultra: Tap Water
I explained what was possibly in our tap water. I looked into the RO/DI systems the most of the salt guy's use. Which I want to get one. But I'm wanting to know if it is cost effective for freshwater and what unit would be best. I found out that RO/DI systems will remove electro lights and PH. The API comes with the additives to restore these properties.

But I did buy the API Water Filter
This thing will remove all the contaminates from our water that causes (Diatoms). But as I said i'm still waiting to see the (Diatoms) that I removed by cleaning reappear. Diatoms


Lighting
I am running a fluorescent strip light over the tank, without real plants, and I only have the lights on maybe three or so hours a day...would this affect diatoms?

hdultra: As far as I know lighting affects all algae forms. I put my lights on a timer.
I read somewhere that fish only need 8 hours of light. True or not I'm running mine at 10 hours instead of 12 to 14 hours a day.

Fort384: I also think that would COULD help would be to actually light the tank longer than 3-4 hours a day. Diatoms actually are sometimes a sign of not enough light, rather than too much.


Substrate
Are you suggesting that perhaps my GRAVEL is causing these?

hdultra: IMO Gravel holds most of the bacteria in our tanks. Good and bad.
Again IMO gravel needs to be cleaned once a month to remove sediments.
I'm sure that gravel host and feeds (Diatoms) But we don't want to destroy the Beneficial Bacteria in the bed. I think during the monthly tank maintenance is when I would clean the gravel. (Note) That I removed my gravel and put in Cichlid sand. I just vacuum of the surface every week during my water changes.


This comes back to the possibility that my tank is STILL cycling, or nearing completion...but this is FIVE MONTHS later...

hdultra: Your Tank IS Already Cycled

Diatoms usually only show up after a newly tank has been cycled. Kinda like new tank syndrome.
I'll have to study why in newly setup tanks. Or someone can gives us that answer.

Decorations

Okay -- I did this the first time, as me and my wife removed all decor from the tank and physically washed each piece down with hot water to remove the diatoms. But I don't want to go through this again every time they pop up, as this was BACK BREAKING work.

hdultra: I agree with 100%. But if it appears you only have one option IMO to physically remove it. Using chemicals is not recommended, because it can do more harm than good. Most of the chemicals can affect your (Biological Filter) and or destroy it.
I think if we take steps to keep our water free of causing contaminates, that it will dramatically reduce (Diatoms) and even eliminate them.

RO/DI
Okay -- I am beginning to suspect that the silicates are the culprit here, and my tap water must be loaded with them. You say filtration is the best way to control this, but again, I am running two fairly large filters on this 60 gallon...do I actually need MORE? With regard to RO -- how does this work in comparison to tap water? How do I go about using RO water instead of my tap?

hdultra: DI systems remove all contaminates from the water to include all the things that cause (Diatoms) Phosphate Po4 And Silicates etc. I'm still wanting to hear from someone about those higher end systems. But for now I have the API. I was told that RO/DI systems will take out all the nutrients needed by freshwater fish. The API system has the additives to put back into the water. The API System is a DI system not RO.

Fort384 Said if someone was to do this to be very careful. It requires adding some minerals back in so that you have some buffering capacity and don't cause a pH crash.

Phosphate Po4

I didn't know this -- this sounds like a possibility. I was looking for something I could just add to the tank to make this easier; does the Seachem product just dump into the water, or is it a "filter" of some kind? And what about the sponge?

hdultra: I made reference to these products, but I have not read about the full affects they have on the biological system. I still need to educate myself on them. I'm sure someone here can tell us. As far as I know the sponge just absorbs Phosphates. I think that the API system will cover all those needs and more.

Fort384: I think running the phosban or something similar could help and may be worth a try. You can put it into a set of panty hose and throw it in your filter if you need some way to contain it. Just use new panty hose so you make sure there is no soap or laundry detergent in them.

I don't have live plants. All are fake. I didn't want our goldfish eating all the real plants!

hdultra: Nor do I. But it is said that live plants can benefit the decline of Diatoms.

But I have been advised that catfish will not mix with goldfish...


hdultra: I'm not sure on that one. Someone will have to educate us on this one.


Indeed, this was very helpful -- thanks so much again for posting this. I look forward to your feedback, and I will do some research on those products you mentioned.

I'm sure if we take steps that we can minimize the affects of diatoms. My aim is to rid them for good. So far so good. My water is crystal clear now. With no signs of diatoms coming back. I have not used any chemicals as of yet. And I don't plan too. Fort384 turned me on to the diatom world and I would like to thank him for all the info. This is the greatest site that I've been involved in, thanks to everyone who has help me keep a thriving tanks.

The reason I took on this subject is because I'm a certified mold restorer for structures. This kinda falls inline for what I do for a living. Molds cannot grow without a water source. Molds must feed on natural fibers and cannot grow unless they have water. Diatoms cannot survive with out a food source. (Phosphates) (Silicates) etc... I love the science of it all. And understanding Algae will help me in my field. I don't know everything but I'm trying to learn it all. Thanks Everyone. If I'm wrong anywhere please correct me.
DIATOMS

 

[fort384]

Ok, I re-read through this... I think running the phosban or something similar could help and may be worth a try. You can put it into a set of panty hose and throw it in your filter if you need some way to contain it. Just use new panty hose so you make sure there is no soap or laundry detergent in them.

I also think that would COULD help would be to actually light the tank longer than 3-4 hours a day. Diatoms actually are sometimes a sign of not enough light, rather than too much.

Beyond that, hdultra's idea about using RO/DI water is intriguing... but you have to be very careful and know what you are getting into to be successful with it in a FW tank. It requires adding some minerals back in so that you have some buffering capacity and don't cause a pH crash.

 

[Osage_Winter]

If you have reduced food, you can reduce the amount of time you have your lights on and can increase water flow.

There is a ton of water flow in this tank -- as I stated, I'm running two rather large filters both with waterfall returns on them, so this is causing lots of splashing and oxygen levels. Further, I have bubble walls lining the back glass...

Another time I had brown algae real bad was when I hadn't changed my replaceable media in my filters for too long. They had clogged up, water flow had decreased and the algae were able to grow easier. You could try changing the replaceable part of your filter (or rinsing it out - OUTSIDE OF THE TANK - in tank water), or buying a powerhead to blow water around.

I'm always changing out the cartridges in my Aqueon filter.

 

[hdultra]

There is a ton of water flow in this tank -- as I stated, I'm running two rather large filters both with waterfall returns on them, so this is causing lots of splashing and oxygen levels. Further, I have bubble walls lining the back glass...



I'm always changing out the cartridges in my Aqueon filter.

Water flow is good then not to worry. To much water flow can be a problem.
Double edge sword. huh

 

[Osage_Winter]

Ok, I re-read through this... I think running the phosban or something similar could help and may be worth a try. You can put it into a set of panty hose and throw it in your filter if you need some way to contain it. Just use new panty hose so you make sure there is no soap or laundry detergent in them.

Are you saying I should try the Seachem product that is supposed to cut down on silicates in the water? The PHOSGUARD stuff?

I also think that would COULD help would be to actually light the tank longer than 3-4 hours a day. Diatoms actually are sometimes a sign of not enough light, rather than too much.

I've actually read about this theory before in many places -- the fact that diatoms may feed off too LITTLE light -- but it's always debunked by someone else who says there is no light control for diatoms, making me even more confused...

Would standard over-tank fluorescent lighting actually make a difference with diatoms?

 

[Osage_Winter]

Water flow is good then not to worry. To much water flow can be a problem.
Double edge sword. huh

Well, I'm not going to worry about too much flow right now -- but I just don't understand why these keep coming back when I have adequate flow, good filtration, have cut back on feeding and don't overcrowd the tank.

 

[hdultra]

Well, I'm not going to worry about too much flow right now -- but I just don't understand why these keep coming back when I have adequate flow, good filtration, have cut back on feeding and don't overcrowd the tank.

You have to know that the filters are not collecting the diatoms. There size is so small that most of them pass right through your filters.

They are like mold spores in the air. You can not see a mold spore in the air, mold spores move with current in the air. We use hepa filters to catch them 99.97% .
Diatoms are the same way in the water. IMO I think these polishing pads help reduce them in the water. Acting like a water hepa filter.

That's why I put polishing pads in my filter boxes to trap these fine particles.
It should help trap silicates also. But I'm Not sure about Phosphates.

 

[Osage_Winter]

Okay, the filters aren't collecting and trapping the diatoms -- but I was only responding to your assertion that good filtration is a must...I assumed I had more than adequate HOB power filtration on this tank...