The Soil Substrate Explained

[Laeris]

Two days ago it was off the charts. I put half a capful of Prime per 3G bucket, so I can skip a day. Bad, but after two days it was "only" around 2 ppm. Did 12g change last night which took it down to lighter than .25. I'll check again tonight as I have tomorrow off and won't need to rush to bed. Would a picture of the test vial next to chart be more helpful? I actually like second opinions.


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[Caliban07]

Two days ago it was off the charts. I put half a capful of Prime per 3G bucket, so I can skip a day. Bad, but after two days it was "only" around 2 ppm. Did 12g change last night which took it down to lighter than .25. I'll check again tonight as I have tomorrow off and won't need to rush to bed. Would a picture of the test vial next to chart be more helpful? I actually like second opinions.


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Sounds like you're talking ammonia? Think the nitrate starts at 5ppm. Might time here now so be a few hours before I can reply. Yes pictures are always useful


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[Laeris]

Sorry, I'm done looking at ammonia. Now I'm working on nitrites.


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[Stacey W.]

30" Long x 24" high x 18" deep

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[Caliban07]

30" Long x 24" high x 18" deep

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I think a standard 25 litre bag is more than enough to get you a 1.5 inch depth which would be roughly 19 pounds. But it's quite difficult to quantify precisely.


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[Stacey W.]

Thanks again, but now I have a predicament. I have 3 angelicus botia and 1 yoyo loach. Are they going to mess up my substrate?

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[Caliban07]

Sorry I'm not familiar with those fish so I can't answer that.


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[Delapool]

Really nice read!

I was wondering if plants can get carbon out of the soil readily? I guess that would be from carbonates unless organic material?

 

[Caliban07]

Really nice read!

I was wondering if plants can get carbon out of the soil readily? I guess that would be from carbonates unless organic material?

Thanks soil does contain carbon but it is in the form of dissolved organic carbon. Some plants are adapted to using carbonates but not all. These will be the plants naturally found in harder waters of course. Admittedly, soil doesn't provide carbon for a long time. Obviously it will depend on many factors. In a tank that doesn't receive any additional carbon the plants do grow very slowly. It is definitely the major limiting factor. Other means of allowing carbon to build up are allowing organic a to remain in the tank to be turned in to DOC and adding a siesta period the allows the accumulation of carbon dioxide. Studies show that most waters deplete the carbon supply by midday.
You can still use injected carbon or glut in a soil tank and plants should grow Nicely without additional fertilisers.


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[Mebbid]

Haha. Thanks mebbid. This is pretty easy going compared to other works we have been involved in so you should be fine. Perhaps you may give soil another go after reading.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts.


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Good news! I finally got around to reading it!

Its a very interesting article. I would be curious to know how much of an impact that detritus plays in the absence of tanks with soil and a more coarse substrate such as flourite.

I have some black flourite on the way to start my 75g build so i might give soil another go.

How long do you think it would take soil to go through its initial breakdown?

 

[Laeris]

Two months iirc

 

[Caliban07]

Good news! I finally got around to reading it!

Its a very interesting article. I would be curious to know how much of an impact that detritus plays in the absence of tanks with soil and a more coarse substrate such as flourite.

I have some black flourite on the way to start my 75g build so i might give soil another go.

How long do you think it would take soil to go through its initial breakdown?

Yay! Thanks Mebbid. Would you be using flourite with the soil or soil instead of flourite. I think it would depend on the set up as in how long it takes for things to settle down. You can speed this process up by soaking the soil and allowing it to dry on some tarp 3 or 4 times. I think the key is to cram the tank full of plants initially. Walstad book says 16 weeks for the main processes associated with initial submergence to slow down. Floating plants would be a good idea to soak up nitrates and ammonia because they can be removed later if you don't want them in the final set up.

As for detritus I can't comment because I'm not actually sure what flourite is made of. I think it's the natural element to soil that gives it the capability to detoxify. For example, soil ph plays a massive role in how efficient the bacteria are and how toxic substances are. It's soils ability to alter the ph to its preferred level that is unique. By doing this it facilitates plant growth which in turn allows plant roots to keep the root surroundings oxygenated and maximise nutrient uptake. Roots are a good site for bacteria growth too.

Even though soil does have to go through the motions it already contains many of the bacteria that are required. Almost all bacteria associated with terrestrial soil are aquatic in that they harbour the moist parts of soil. Therefore submerging soil will retain much of the bacteria. Not just nitrifying bacteria but thousands of useful bacteria.

When people use sand as a substrate it just doesn't provide this unique environment that plants are so use to. Oxygen is extremely scarce because of the structural composition of sand. It doesn't allow plant roots to move as freely or retain important nutrients even with the addition of root tabs because of its poor CEC. It has poor surface area for bacteria to colonise. Pure sand substrates do very little to aid plant growth as opposed to soil. After a number of years when soil finally becomes depleted the Humic substances will be far better capable of accepting nutrients supplied via root tabs. Plants (rooted) cannot get all their nutrients from their leaves alone so they have to be fed at their roots.

Flourite will provide nutrients at the roots but will it facilitate the natural activity associated with soil bacteria? I wouldn't have thought so. My view is why try it? Why not just use soil. It has been used as a substrate for generations and in many opinion it is requisite for normal plant growth.

I hope you decide to give it another go

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[Mebbid]

On paper this really is excellent. But what i really question is "does it truly make a difference"

Ive had absurd amounts of success with root tabs and plain black diamond sand as anyone that has seen my root tab thread has been able to observe.

My amazon sword grew that much in the course of a few months with my root tab change. It would have grow bigger but the leaves kept growing out of rhe top of my 55 which killed them.

I might give soil 1 last try, i haven't decided yet. The wetting and drying isnt gonna happen though because i live in an apartment now.

 

[Caliban07]

On paper this really is excellent. But what i really question is "does it truly make a difference"

Ive had absurd amounts of success with root tabs and plain black diamond sand as anyone that has seen my root tab thread has been able to observe.

My amazon sword grew that much in the course of a few months with my root tab change. It would have grow bigger but the leaves kept growing out of rhe top of my 55 which killed them.

I might give soil 1 last try, i haven't decided yet. The wetting and drying isnt gonna happen though because i live in an apartment now.

I know, I do understand this. We're there any column ferts added or co2 to this set up? What is the gh of your source water?



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[Caliban07]

I guess my idea of success is slanted slightly towards organicity. Not there is anything wrong with your tanks because there isn't. You set out to achieve something which you accomplished.

I think it is what soil represents that makes it a superior substrate in my eyes. It's a necessary jigsaw piece to the overall ecosystem as it facilitates what nature intended. Soil doesn't just allow good plant growth. It allows me to take a step away from my ecosystem and watch the interaction between plants and fauna without the aid or hindrance of human interaction. I feel more comfortable knowing that my fish are in the hands of a more natural ecosystem. The problems that have been created both directly and indirectly over the last two years by using just gravel and root tabs for me have been something I never want to go back to. As I grew more to understand why my plants were dying (and my fish due to parameter instability) I discovered this method.

It's not going to be for everyone. Especially if results have proven well elsewhere but soil substrates offer another side to the high tech approach. A calmer approach in my eyes. If your plants have grown well in sand and tabs. I am almost certain that the same growth if not better can be achieved by using soil for much longer without intervention and I believe that as far as the plants are concerned it does make a difference.


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[Mebbid]

I guess my idea of success is slanted slightly towards organicity. Not there is anything wrong with your tanks because there isn't. You set out to achieve something which you accomplished.

I think it is what soil represents that makes it a superior substrate in my eyes. It's a necessary jigsaw piece to the overall ecosystem as it facilitates what nature intended. Soil doesn't just allow good plant growth. It allows me to take a step away from my ecosystem and watch the interaction between plants and fauna without the aid or hindrance of human interaction. I feel more comfortable knowing that my fish are in the hands of a more natural ecosystem. The problems that have been created both directly and indirectly over the last two years by using just gravel and root tabs for me have been something I never want to go back to. As I grew more to understand why my plants were dying (and my fish due to parameter instability) I discovered this method.

It's not going to be for everyone. Especially if results have proven well elsewhere but soil substrates offer another side to the high tech approach. A calmer approach in my eyes. If your plants have grown well in sand and tabs. I am almost certain that the same growth if not better can be achieved by using soil for much longer without intervention and I believe that as far as the plants are concerned it does make a difference.


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Thats all part of what i wanted to detail in the experiment i was going to attempt regarding substrate. Life got in the way and i wasnt able to do it

 

[Caliban07]

Thats all part of what i wanted to detail in the experiment i was going to attempt regarding substrate. Life got in the way and i wasnt able to do it

There's no rush. Start a soil tank and document your experience. I am still learning too and the more people we can encourage to use soil there more we can fine tune the method.


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[Delapool]

Generally I've found soil superior but mainly tried just in pots.

I've noticed that since redoing the substrate (gravel and flourite), I'm getting slower growth. Not sure if this is less light (which it is) but also I need to rebuild the humus in the gravels (maybe?).

 

[Caliban07]

Generally I've found soil superior but mainly tried just in pots.

I've noticed that since redoing the substrate (gravel and flourite), I'm getting slower growth. Not sure if this is less light (which it is) but also I need to rebuild the humus in the gravels (maybe?).

Yeah I don't really know anything about flourite so I'm not sure on its cation exchange ability. I added some clay to my dirtied 5 gallon and put some large swords in there. The total substrate was 2 inches if that but it was difficult to plant. I could see the red colouring of the clay pressed against the sides of the glass so i was worried I had overdone it. I'm not joking, when I uprooted my swords their roots were as long as my forearm. I've never seen anything like it. Conversely, of all the plants in my 46 gallon the swords are sprouting poor new leaves. I added clay to this tank too but I'm just wondering if it because when I trim the roots and replant they are sitting in the gravel section and have not yet reached the dirt. I'm going to leave them for a while and see if they get healthier.

In my dirtied thread since the addition of more light output things are going very well. I have only ever used pure gravel or pure sand before and I have failed to grow plants completely.


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[Delapool]

Will be interesting to see how it pans out. Imo the flourite is still a gravel but I figured it couldn't be worse than aquarium gravel.

Just cleaning out a canister filter and realised I had the red lights on the t5ho switched off for at least a week and a half. Grr, back to the drawing board. This may have coloured my thinking.