Two gourami deaths.. Something to be worried about?

[Danny.]

I have a 240l tank that has been set up now for about 3 months ammonia 0, nirite about .1ppm and nirate at about .15ppm I have recently just finished treating my tank for Ich with the salt and higher tempreture method changed the water of friday after the 10 days. I currently have in the tank:
5 silver mollies
5 black mollies
4 rams
3 clown loaches
10 neon tetra
5 platies
7 guppies
a common pleco
a gold nugget pleco
2 cory cats
a ruby shark
2 black phantom tetra
and 2 red honey gouramis (one currently dying and the other bought yesterday)

My question is is that yesterday one of my red honey gouramis died we didnt really think anything of it as it wasnt looking well for a day or 2 so we went to the pet store and bought another one to replace it.
Today we have woke up to find our other original gourami sat at the bottom of the main tank, barely moving and its nearly dead i would probably give it another 10-15 minutes if that.
My question is is this something to worry about? With the death of one yesterday i would have just left it but now another one has died to day im not too sure.
The one we got from the pet store is happy as larry but we don't want to go out and replace the other one that has died if the same is going to happen to the new one and i dont want it to be something to jeopordise my other fish especially the gold nugget that cost about £60.
Any ideas?
Thanks

 

[saa5886]

Isnt 240L equal to just over 60 some-odd gallons?

 

[spoonman]

Yep, thats a lot of fish.

 

[saa5886]

I would say, a death is always something to have concern about. It's a sign that something has gone wrong. We just have to figure out now what that is.
First, you do seem to have way too many fish for that size tank. The 1" per gallon rule really isn't very accurate. Although many pet stores follow this rule for inventory, a fish should have much more space in their forever home.
If I'm counting correctly, you have about 48 fish right now? Many of which are probably well over an inch if we were to even go by that rule. That being said, you should definitely consider finding new homes for quite a few (perhaps a new 30 gallon tank would suffice?).
Next step....do some partial water changes. I would probably do 30% water changes daily for a week and see if that improves your condition. I wouldn't do too much at once or the fish may go into shock from the quick change in parameters.
When replacing the water, use your water test kit to test the water you are putting in the tank. It's very likely that if you are using tap water, it could have natural ammonia in it. I struggled with that for a month trying to figure out why my levels were so bad, and it was the new water I was putting in.
I actually prefer using purified water from my fridge, or for a small water change, distilled works fine.
As soon as you possibly can, work on getting at least 20 of those fish to a new established tank. Don't forget to acclimate them first. At that point, you'll have much less toxins and a much more stable environment for your fish. They will thank you.

 

[Danny.]

I know its alot of fish for the size tank but we have a fluval external 405 filter with ammonia removing crystals and a fluval U4 internal with total turnover of about 2300lph so waste build up is no problem also the tank has over 25 live plants. Are gouramis particularly sensitive to anything, like salt or higher tempretures?

 

[saa5886]

Even if you do have great filtration, the fish are going to be exposed to higher stress in general, the greater probability for exposure to disease, etc. You are here because you are having deaths, which means something is wrong.
You mentioned live plants... Remember that live plants also release chemicals into the water, even if they are live and well. But also, even if you have one leaf on one plant that is dead or dying, it's also releasing chemicals and toxins.
You have way too much live stuff in this tank. Get rid of half of it. It's overwhelming your fish.

 

[Danny.]

Thanks for the advice. I know that 48 fish seems alot for this aquarium.. I thought it was too but it doesnt seem to be causing many problems in water parameters, pH, Ammonia and nirites have remained pretty much constant with no drastic fluctuations and also the fish seem fine in the aquarium i think the extra filter and ammonia crystals are helping to control that, there isnt any competition over territory or food, my common pleco and gold nugget share a small cave with no aggresion problems and the rest of the fish seem to be quite happy and still having all of the first lot of fish that i bought with no deaths or problems i assumed that this number of fish would be ok to have my tank stocked with.

 

[Danny.]

I also dont think the amount of plants in the aquarium is a problem. My LFS has helped me along the way with setting my tank up, ive purchased all my plants and fish from them, too their recommendations withs stocking and plants. I know you may be tempted to think that they are just trying to sell fish but i do not beleive this is the case as it is one of the best Fish stores in the UK so i trust them with their advice and according to them my tank is stocked and planted ok and adequetly filtered.

 

[Danny.]

Heres the site so you know they arn't some small pet store trying to make as much money as possible without thinking about the welfare of their animals.

Wharf Aquatics - Tropical Marine Pond Fish Aquariums Reptiles Shop

 

[saa5886]

I just read your other posts, and see that you did not do a fishless cycle, and that you have had one additional death, as well as plant deaths. At this point, I would recommend taking a water sample to a local pet shop and having them test your water. With all this going on, there has to be something happening to stress your fish, whether it be parameters or just having too many fish. There is a chance your water test kit could be bad (even if you bought it brand new, I had that luck once) and the parameters are reading wrong. It's hard for me to believe you have 48 fish and 25 live plants and your parameters have been perfect this whole time.

I also saw on another post that you were having issues with aggression in certain fish. This is probably due to over-population as well. Fish can become stressed just like any human would if they are exposed to so much going on. I can guarantee you, water changes, and moving half those fish to a new tank will more than likely solve this problem. That's just my thought.

 

[dkpate]

I lost a dwarf gourami to gourami disease, and I lost to to dropsy. Have you checked their bodies to see if they look bloated and pinecony? How is their slime coat?
Since you have nitrites, your tank is not fully cycled or overcrowded. What kind of a test kit are you using?

 

[saa5886]

it doesnt seem to be causing many problems in water parameters, pH, Ammonia and nirites have remained pretty much constant with no drastic fluctuations

That says to me there may be something wrong with your test kit. Your params will naturally fluctuate slightly with that much going on. If it isn't, it isn't because you have a flawless tank. It's because the test kit isn't working. I invested in a $30 API Water Test Kit and discovered it was old after one week of use. Thankfully, they exchanged it for me, and my parameters made more sense. Your params don't make much sense to me.
For example, having zero ammonia after a fish death and plant deaths doesn't make sense because that's where ammonia comes from (as well as uneaten food, which every tank has regardless of it's filter).

Again, this is just my thought. I'd like to hear what others think as well.

 

[Danny.]

Aggression has calmed down now, i had an aggresive silver male mollie but now their are more females hes calmed down abit, also the fish get abit nippy for the first 2 minutes of the lights being off then they settle down, so no real problems with aggression. The test kit i am using is a Nutrafin Master test kit, comes with all the basic tests, ammonia, ph, nirite, nitrate, Carbonate hardness, general hardness, iron and phosphate.
I would be worried if my fish were exhibiting signs of stress or ammonia poisoning but they're really not they all seem absolutly fine and feeding very well. Even the Gold Nugget which is meant to be harder to keep is eating lots of zucchini and pleco wafers.
Also the other fish that died was a male guppy that was beaten to death by a betta fish which has now gone back to the LFS so that wasnt a problem due to water or anything else and only 1 plant death out of 25 i dont think is too bad do you? I mean the rest have grown huge since planting i think it may have just been a rooting problem.

 

[Danny.]

I really don't think theres a problem with the test kit (at least i hope not with paying £50 about $80 for it) It has being showing slight variations in pH, and nitrite levels and their was a spike in ammonia about a week ago.
When the gouramis died they were slightly bloated and their body was quite coarse no slimey coat on it at all.
I would really have thought that if there was a problem with the water that my other fish would be showing signs of stress or dying which they are not the LFS did a test on my water 3 days ago when i bought the Gold Nugget pleco as its their policy before selling expensive L-Numbers and they said told everythnig was fine and that the tank was just finishing cycling.

 

[Danny.]

For example, having zero ammonia after a fish death and plant deaths doesn't make sense because that's where ammonia comes from (as well as uneaten food, which every tank has regardless of it's filter).

I may not have any ammonia in my tank because in my filter i have 4 bags of the ammonia remover instead of most people having 2 and a different type of media so this may explain why my ammonia levels are 0

 

[saa5886]

Gotcha. Interesting. The gouramis could have just been sick when you got them. Maybe just a bad batch? I know that fish don't always show signs that they are going to die. When I first started my tank, I had perfectly happy fish and the next day they would be dead so...
I don't know... anyone else have any ideas?

 

[Danny.]

Thanks for your advice i just really dont want to lose more fish, having spent over £200 on them and more than £700 on the tank and equipment i want them to have the best possible enviroment and no more deaths.
Ill do a 25% water change and see how it goes from there.
Thanks

 

[saa5886]

Yeah, I would say do a water change. They are always the best starting point. Good luck! I hope no more of your sweeties get sick!

 

[dkpate]

^^ Am I invisible?

 

[strokinbyeu]

man thats alot of fish, and im sure you know that. how big are your clown loaches? my 3 cut my pwc form once a month to every 2 weeks, they make that much crap,lol you got make sure you have plenty of room for you gourami to swim up, down,left right, front and back. same with the loaches they need alot of subsraight to investigate.

how often do you replace the ammona media in your filter?