malkore
Aquarium Advice Addict
Now that you describe it Steve, I have heard that somewhere before. Thanks for clarifying.
under gravel filters? whats the problem?
- Thread starter i like fish
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i like fish
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
ok, im just getting more confused, sooo a ugf will produce nitrates? but then the live rock/sand will get rid of it? or it produces detritus which will hurt my tank? or the ugf will work with a light bioload, so bad for a reef tank? um, im confused, basically i wanted the look of sand anyways so i was leaning taht way for my reef, but that would mean having to buy a new filter, and if that was the case, i dunno what id do, i have the two powerheads for movement, but then i dunno where id go so im still undecided, im still confused on if a ugf will harm /help/ or be indifferent to the reef tank in its filtration
BillyZ
Aquarium Advice Addict
its not so much that UGF's "produce" nitrates but is more that the denitrification process stops at the Nitrate stage because the bacteria to remove the nitrates needs an anoxic region to exist. This is the same reason why many SW tanks now also steer clear of wet-dry trickle filters. They're great for FO systems, but the denitrification stops at the Nitrate stage which inverts cannot tolerate. Sand beds and LR allow for anoxic regions where that last stage of denitrification can occur.
Back to your original post, you mentioned the non-UGF approach to be much more expensive and complicated. That's not true. Sumps, refugiums, skimmers etc are not a necessity. Many folks use them and they DO benefit a SW aquarium but they don't have to be part of the system for a SW tank to survive. I don't have any of that stuff in my 55. My complete system consists of CC/LS substrate, about 50-60 LBS or LR (I need more), a Heater and PHs and Pumps for water movement. Thats it, literaly. I have perfect Ph, Sg, 0 ammonia, nitrites, nitrates (this sometimes creeps up to about 5 at the most). I only do water changes maybe once a month at the most. My tank takes care of itself. It's been up for almost 2 years now I think... This is why I give a lot of weight to the berlin method.
Back to your original post, you mentioned the non-UGF approach to be much more expensive and complicated. That's not true. Sumps, refugiums, skimmers etc are not a necessity. Many folks use them and they DO benefit a SW aquarium but they don't have to be part of the system for a SW tank to survive. I don't have any of that stuff in my 55. My complete system consists of CC/LS substrate, about 50-60 LBS or LR (I need more), a Heater and PHs and Pumps for water movement. Thats it, literaly. I have perfect Ph, Sg, 0 ammonia, nitrites, nitrates (this sometimes creeps up to about 5 at the most). I only do water changes maybe once a month at the most. My tank takes care of itself. It's been up for almost 2 years now I think... This is why I give a lot of weight to the berlin method.
Edmonton Eskimo
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Basically if you want to use the ugf then use it. We are simply stating why we don't use it. Any system can be made to work including the ugf it just takes more maintenance to keep it healthy.
No need for argument as we are all continually learning things we never knew before.
I have 2-90's, 2-75's, a 65 and a 55 that are all heavily skimmed, are all barebottomed, and all have live rock in them for the bio-logical filtration as there is no other filter of any kind in any of these tanks. I have no detectable ammonia, nitrite, or nitrates at any time.
These tanks have been long term set ups, the first 90 was just over 9 yrs ago, and the youngest set up is over two years old now.
I have 2-90's, 2-75's, a 65 and a 55 that are all heavily skimmed, are all barebottomed, and all have live rock in them for the bio-logical filtration as there is no other filter of any kind in any of these tanks. I have no detectable ammonia, nitrite, or nitrates at any time.
These tanks have been long term set ups, the first 90 was just over 9 yrs ago, and the youngest set up is over two years old now.
i like fish
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
ok, another question, you mention "berlin method" whats that, and what exactly does a protein skimmer do? and are canister filters worth the investment, or just expensive opverkill or what like an Eheim 2026 Professionel II or osmething of the sort
Edmonton Eskimo
Aquarium Advice FINatic
I feel myself a canister filter isn't worth the price you pay. Myself I have an ac500 for carbon and pretty much for water flow(well I modified it to hold my skimmer and heater) and I have lots of live rock and good sand and that's it. I was struggling with nitrates myself for a while until I got my skimmer. A skimmer uses air bubbles to remove all kinds of things-organic compounds,toxic metals,etc(do a google search on protein skimmers).
With regards to cannister filtration, that is all up to the individual hobbyist. Many people use them with great success so how can anyone say they are no good. It's only my opinion that I don't need them for the method I choose.
(I do use a fluval 403 for vaccuming a tank after cleaning)
Protein skimming is a method to remove dissolved organics from the water before they break down into ammonia, thus lessening the load on the bio-logical filter.
The Berlin method as it was known in the middle 90's when I started (Jan 94) was heavy protein skimming and a lot of quality live rock.
I believe the original Berlin method years before in Europe, included a thin layer of substrate instead of the bare bottom that I started with.
This was the ideal set up for me as it was very economical and I could build my own skimmer and the filtration expense was just live rock which I would have wanted anyway.
(I do use a fluval 403 for vaccuming a tank after cleaning)
Protein skimming is a method to remove dissolved organics from the water before they break down into ammonia, thus lessening the load on the bio-logical filter.
The Berlin method as it was known in the middle 90's when I started (Jan 94) was heavy protein skimming and a lot of quality live rock.
I believe the original Berlin method years before in Europe, included a thin layer of substrate instead of the bare bottom that I started with.
This was the ideal set up for me as it was very economical and I could build my own skimmer and the filtration expense was just live rock which I would have wanted anyway.
Edmonton Eskimo
Aquarium Advice FINatic
read the post I never said they were no good
If that remark was directed to me, you read the times.
While you were posting I was writing and at my post time I was unaware you had even posted.
My response was just my opinion replying to "i like fish"
I see nothing wrong with your reply about cannister filters as everyone has a right to their opinion, and there is not necessarily a right and a wrong, more, a preference.
While you were posting I was writing and at my post time I was unaware you had even posted.
My response was just my opinion replying to "i like fish"
I see nothing wrong with your reply about cannister filters as everyone has a right to their opinion, and there is not necessarily a right and a wrong, more, a preference.
S
steve-s
Guest
Let's not turn a constructive discussion into a locked thread 
Cheers
Steve
Cheers
Steve
indy
Aquarium Advice FINatic
No way, lets rumble. Ford rocks and Chevy sucks WOOOOOO! 
But really, research the different options and choose the method you like. Regardless of the choice, everyone here will try to make it as healthy as possible.
But really, research the different options and choose the method you like. Regardless of the choice, everyone here will try to make it as healthy as possible.
malkore
Aquarium Advice Addict
Let me also state that while a protein skimmer is by no means a critically necessary item...it will improve your water quality and make normal maintenance easier.
Have you ever been to the beach, and seen a large glob of frothy bubbles washed up on shore? It almost looks like the head on a dark beer (mmmmm....Guinness.....)
Well that's the ocean's natural protein skimming. The waves crash upon the rocks and reef, creating tiny bubbles. These bubbles attract certain particles which muck up the water. When the wave crashes onto the shore, the bubbles break and the gunk gets deposited on the sand. That's just how a mechanical skimmer works...it removes organic compounds your eye cannot see, and puts them into a collection cup. What you end up with is a slightly thick, coffee colored liquid, which smells aweful. Once you try a skimmer and see what it removes, you'll be sold on the idea of using one.
If you decide to use a skimmer, you don't need one right away, and please do NOT buy a Prizm skimmer...these are junk.
Have you ever been to the beach, and seen a large glob of frothy bubbles washed up on shore? It almost looks like the head on a dark beer (mmmmm....Guinness.....)
Well that's the ocean's natural protein skimming. The waves crash upon the rocks and reef, creating tiny bubbles. These bubbles attract certain particles which muck up the water. When the wave crashes onto the shore, the bubbles break and the gunk gets deposited on the sand. That's just how a mechanical skimmer works...it removes organic compounds your eye cannot see, and puts them into a collection cup. What you end up with is a slightly thick, coffee colored liquid, which smells aweful. Once you try a skimmer and see what it removes, you'll be sold on the idea of using one.
If you decide to use a skimmer, you don't need one right away, and please do NOT buy a Prizm skimmer...these are junk.
BillyZ
Aquarium Advice Addict
I should clarify my statements. I did not mean to imply that skimmers, sumps, refugiums etc weren't useful or beneficial. They most certainly are. They have proven benefits for your aquarium system. My points were that they simply aren't a "must have". I do plan on eventually revamping my 55 some day to include a sump with refugium and a skimmer... but my tank is doing just fine without it so far and I view these other systems, IMO, as added security.
seafan
Aquarium Advice FINatic
The only reason you should not use LR is the price. There is nothing wrong with a UGF, It is just that LR requires less maintenance, does not breakdown easily, and is pretty. The truth is a well maintained UGF on a small marine tank is a perfectly fine inexpensive way to start.
malkore
Aquarium Advice Addict
Though I don't recommend going with UGF and LR. Why? UGF relies on being able to circulate thru the entire sand bed. LR will block the 'vents' in the UGF plate, forming dead zones in the sand bed.
So its an 'either/or' situation...rather than 'both' when it comes to UGF and LR.
Also, in case it wasn't already mentioned in this thread, you don't have to go with all LR. You can buy 1/10th of your total rock as actual live rock...and the rest can be dead/base rock, which is usually very very cheap. The live rock will seed the dead rock with coralline and bacteria, but your initial cycle will probably take longer and you'll wanna be little more cautious when stocking (just watching for ammonia spikes). The major downside to using less live rock is fewer cool hitchhikers...then again you have a reduced risk of getting a mantis shrimp.
So its an 'either/or' situation...rather than 'both' when it comes to UGF and LR.
Also, in case it wasn't already mentioned in this thread, you don't have to go with all LR. You can buy 1/10th of your total rock as actual live rock...and the rest can be dead/base rock, which is usually very very cheap. The live rock will seed the dead rock with coralline and bacteria, but your initial cycle will probably take longer and you'll wanna be little more cautious when stocking (just watching for ammonia spikes). The major downside to using less live rock is fewer cool hitchhikers...then again you have a reduced risk of getting a mantis shrimp.
Nate C
Aquarium Advice Activist
To the original poster...
Opinions are like... bellybuttons. Everybody has one.
We have a dozen LFS here in Portland. Most are great guys who have been working in "the biz" for 20 or 30 yrs. One guy says you only need 3x tank turnover for all corals. One guy says you only need 2watts per gallon for anything. One guy says only use cured rock, the next guy says never use cured rock. One guy says never run a heater and let your lights work in the day, and let the tank cool at night. One guy likes wet drys and hates DSBs. One guy told me to cycle my tank with Percs. etc. etc. etc.
Many of them have STUNNING show tanks. Many of them maintain tanks for businesses around town.
Bottom line - do as much research as you can stand to do if you are concerned about the welfare of your fish. Make the best decision based on yours and your tanks needs. Don't sweat it, or take it personally if someone else has a different way.
Remember anyone who can type can get online. You don't even need to know how to spell...
HTH,
Nate C
Opinions are like... bellybuttons. Everybody has one.
We have a dozen LFS here in Portland. Most are great guys who have been working in "the biz" for 20 or 30 yrs. One guy says you only need 3x tank turnover for all corals. One guy says you only need 2watts per gallon for anything. One guy says only use cured rock, the next guy says never use cured rock. One guy says never run a heater and let your lights work in the day, and let the tank cool at night. One guy likes wet drys and hates DSBs. One guy told me to cycle my tank with Percs. etc. etc. etc.
Many of them have STUNNING show tanks. Many of them maintain tanks for businesses around town.
Bottom line - do as much research as you can stand to do if you are concerned about the welfare of your fish. Make the best decision based on yours and your tanks needs. Don't sweat it, or take it personally if someone else has a different way.
Remember anyone who can type can get online. You don't even need to know how to spell...
HTH,
Nate C
KMyers18
Aquarium Advice Freak
What it sounds like to me is, this is some kid that does not really know anything, except that he wanted to start a huge uproar and you all fell right in his little trap! IMO use what ever you want. Who really cares if your fish die try some thing new! This forum is good but it is a joke at the same time! If you ask a small question then your fine but if you ask a more complicated one you can hang up getting any useable info because every one chimes in and all you get is confused and you end up buying what you want anyway so why waste your time? Now if you have a small question fine like the one posted on the blue star fish i got good info but just try to ask something like what is the best kind of filter!! This person will probably never be the same trying to figure out what way to go (poor guy/girl) :| :| :|
i like fish
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
actually i know quite a bit, but i was getting flustered being told ugfs suck and that everything else is better, basically i just wanted to know the reasons that ugfs are not spoken highly of in the reef tank scenario and some people gave me some good answers, so yea everyone has an opinion but i wanted to know why people thouhgt that way to since i havent done a reef tank and i dont wanna spend money if i dont have to, so its nothing like trying to cause an uproar, sorry if ive bothered you with my post,
S
steve-s
Guest
Great attitudeKMyers18 said:
While this may be the same kind of post you accuse others of replying to I am going to respond not the less.
I find your attitude quite dismal and unhelpful to the community. If you are not satisfied with the answers you receive, that is not an issue for the members of this forum to pander to. Each and every person has a right to be heard as long as it is in a civilized manner. Insults to anyone or the forum as a whole are not accebtable.
If you ask a specific question you are likely to get a specific response, as with the sea star. When asking general questions you will get multiple and varying responses which will most likely always be the case.
If there was one "all perfect" piece of equipment or set up, there would only be one book or forum detailed with the directions. Since there is no such thing, we will continue to help those that seek it.
Regards
Steve
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