Urgent Amonia Problem from Hell! Help!

[Katie_McKoy]

I am a "newbie" and am writing on behalf of my husband who has a huge problem, so please bear with me on this.

My husband has a 75 gallon freshwater tank.

He has a Biowheel Emperor 400 and a Penguin 330 filters on this tank.

The problem is that the amonia levels for this tank are off the charts. He has tried everything (replacing filters, replacing filter cartridges, tabs, switching out half the water, complete water replacement). And still, the amonia is off the charts.

Do you guys have any ideas what could be causing this? No one we have talked to know what could be the cause of the problem, and this is really upsetting him. I would appreciate any help you could give. Thanks!

 

[Allivymar]

Hiya Katie and welcome to Aquariumadvice

Coupla questions first. How long has the tank been up and running? How many fish and what kinds? And what/how much does the hubby feed them? How often does he water change and gravel vac? Ok...so it was a little more then a coupla questions *grin*

Ammonia is caused by a bunch of different things: respiratory and digestive waste from fish, rotting food, rotting plants for example. If there isn't enough nitrifying bacteria to handle the load, there will be ammonia in the tank (and likely nitrites as well). The bacteria colonise all the surfaces in the tank, especially the filter and the bio-wheels as they actually have the most surface. If hubby is changing the filter media that may be part although not all of the prob as he's removing some of that good bacteria.

Also, one water change will not help; regular (possibly daily) water changes are needed to reduce levels; don't forget, the fish are continually adding ammonia to the tank. There is also a slight chance there is some ammonia in the tap water (its happened before or the tests are defective (also has happened). Once the ammonia levels are taken care of by enough bacteria, the amount of water changes can reduce.

If you guys haven't read up on it, I strongly suggest checking out these 2 articles. They will explain what the nitrogen cycle is, and ways to deal with it:
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=21

Good luck and let us know how its going!

 

[Katie_McKoy]

Here is more info

The tank has been up and running since May of this year.

He has 6 buenos aries tetras, 6 bala sharks, a pleckapotamus (I know I did not spell that right), 2 dojo loaches, a pink kissing guarami, and a beta. He has been very carefull to follow the inch rule for the tank.

He changes the water every day and gravel vacs every day as well.

He feeds the fish 2 times a day: tropical fish flakes and shrimp pellets. And I am sure that he does not over feed them because the food is gone within a minute because they have eaten it.

As for amonia in the tap water, he has tested our tap water with multiple tests which all said there was none.

I am not sure how often he changes the filter, but it is definately not every day or anything like that.

I will pass on what you have said. Based on the information I have given you, is there anything else you can suggest? Thanks!

 

[William]

You have way to many Bala Sharks for that tank, they get around 16 inches long when grown up.

Also, you should NEVER follow the inch rule Instead, do research to find out how big a fish gets when it grows up and go from there, In other words.. buy fish for how big they are when grown, not how big they are now.

Stop gravel vaccing every day, Your proably damaging the bacteria colony thats supposed to deal with the amonia.



Personally, i would take everyone of those Bala's back to the LFS and get something thats more suited to your tank. You CAN keep Bala's alone, and 1 would be fine in your tank, however they like to be in groups so they won't be as happy by themself as they would be in a group.

There are plenty of other beautiful fish out there that can take the place of the Bala's

 

[juliemichelle]

I recently experienced this myself! It can be scary. It doesn't sound like anything has died yet, which is good. First of all, if your tank hasn't cycled yet you might want to hold off on vaccuuming the gravel every day, all the good bacteria is trying to build a home deep in the gravel and you could be sucking out the things that are trying to eat your ammonia. Just suck out the water. Also, have you tried AmmoLock? (I know the experts hate medications/additives like that but it worked for me.) It breaks down the harmful ammonia into "less harmful" nitrites which are then processed by your biological filter. Your tests will still show ammonia, but it will really be nitrites. You'll still need to do 25-30% water changes every day or every other day. After a week test again from ammonia and your levels should be fine. Also, my local fishguru suggests only feeding every-other day. (his fish are gorgeous, even at his home! Classmates!) Good luck!

 

[fire goby]

sounds like system crash......

 

[Katie_McKoy]

I talked to him and here are a few corrections from him:

Before this started, gravel vac and normal water changes of 20-30% were every 2-3 weeks. Ammonia testing was weekly. When it started getting bad, began partial water changes on a weekly basis, then bi-daily.

Filter cartridge was only changed out once, because they were almost 6 months old and the filter wasn't flowing very well. This was before the second 330 was added to help. (2-3 weeks ago)

Also, he says he follows the inch rule based on maximum length. He explains that the reason he has six balas currently is due to multiple articles he read while researching them. The minimum suggested group was 6, and it was noted that they most often reached only 7 inches in captivity, but COULD go upward to 14-16, and even then it takes over 5 years. Since it was in so many sources stated the smaller average size, he got them anyways, because he plans to have a larger tank in a few years anyways. They're about 3 inches now, actually smaller than some of the beunos aires tetras.

He did try Ammo-lock, but it didn't work to well. He followed the instructions, and after the treatment phase the level was still high. He did a large 60% water change after that first week of treatment, which STILL didn't put much of a dint in it. He waited a day or two before trying again.

More info:
The baskets in the 330 have Ammo-Chips, and the baskets in the 400 filter have Ammo-card. The tank is treated with stress zyme and stress coat with recommended doses as per instructions. The rear wall of the aquarium has bubble wands the entire length. The gravel is medium sized pebble.

He also wanted to note that the tank was doing very well until about 4 weeks ago, when it first started to spike.

 

[William]

Note that if you do a water change, add dechlorinator, then test for amonia within 24 hours your likely to get a false reading.


From the Dechlorers I've used, I've noticed that if I test within 24 hours I get a 6ppm amonia reading.

if I test without dechlorinator in the water [ I.E. Before a waterchange, or around a day and a half after ] I get my real reading, which is 0.

 

[Katie_McKoy]

He's making me make more corrections. He wanted to state that the tank WAS off the charts. He did a complete cleaning lastnight, draining the entire tank and cleaning all the waste from the ornaments and gravel. Once the tank was operating fully again, it had 0.25ppm.

But this morning it had 4ppm, and he was mad. He says thanks for the test warning, if the treatments can push it up then he'll wait another two days before taking any further measures.

The fish are being kept in a temporary tank right now. Its not very big but its clean and will give the other tank time to cycle a bit before they move back in a day or two. He's watching it closely for any problems, but doesn't expect anything before they go back.

 

[Allivymar]

*grin* I hope you're being paid well for being his secretary

Couple of things to know, then we can problem solve. Ammonia removers like ammo-lock do NOT remove ammonia. They just convert it to a non-toxic form. Thing is, Nessler tests can't tell the difference and just register "ammonia". If he's using a test that changes to yellow colors its a Nessler. If so, he may want to try a salicyte test; they turn shades of green and test for NH3 (toxic ammonia) not NH4 (ammonium). I personally never use the ammonia converters; I only do water changes (clean fresh treated water is always the best thing for fish). That being said, I do keep some in the house in case I need to use antibiotics as those will kill off a bacterial colony and trying to water changes and keep med levels correct is a pain. Have yet to use it tho. But on that note, have you guys needed to do any medicating in the recent past?

Did ANYTHING change prior to the ammonia spike? New fish, filter/media, feedings, new chemicals, children dropping things into the tank, a large party, anything?

How long ago did he use the Ammo-lock?

How long between the change of the filter media and the ammonia spike? Did it happen before or after?

Did the ammonia levels go from .25 to 4 ppm WITHOUT the fish?

Sounds like his water husbandry was quite good until things went boom. I don't think that was the issue.

Also a FYI, forget the 1" = 1 gallon rule. Its terribly outdated as it does not take into account how dirty (waste production) a species is, amount of space needed or temperament. The reason some fish do not make it to the expected adult size is due to animal husbandry (water care, tank size, tank mates); do know if a fish is well taken care of it most likely WILL reach its wild size. Heh, the way your hisband is working his tail off tell him not to be surprised when they continue to grow after 7 inches *grin*

I don't often recommend this, especially when the cause has not yet been determined, but you guys might want to look into something called Bio-Spira. Its the only correct nitrifying bacteria on the market, and while its made for rising levels of ammonia and not established levels, it MAY help restart the cycle in your tank. Of course, your mileage may vary.

So lets see if we can figure out whats going on and why you guys are having such a prob.

 

[Katie_McKoy]

The bala sharks are the newest fish in the tank. When they went in, the tank, as expected, spiked for a short while, then dropped back down, as it should with any new fish to his knowledge. That was 6 weeks ago.

Spiking was 3-4 weeks ago. He doesn't see how the sharks could cause a second spike that just overwhelmed all efforts to bring it under control.

No medicating has ever needed to be done in this tank, but another tank some time ago had a bad spell that we attribute to disease. We couldn't figure that out either, but it went away on its own after killing a few new fish. We're blaiming the store right now, as the next week the majority of their tanks were near empty or completely empty. That tank has recovered and is thriving with a new group of fish. The balas are from the same store but 2-3 weeks later, after they had restocked. They seem perfectly healthy and the other tank never had ammonia so don't think its related.

The ammonia in the tank, overnight with no fish, went from 0.25ppm to 4ppm. It was tested about 6-7 hours after the filters were turned on. A test after work about 9 hours later showed even higher levels, 6-8ppm. He doesn't understand why, but has an idea.

He forgot to change out the ammo-chip in the 330 lastnight, and he says those are suppose to recharge and release ammonia in salty water. The tank did get a dose of fresh water aquarium salt (The kind for gill function and electrolytes), but not even a full dose cause he worries about over doing it. He wonders if that might have released ammonia back into the tank.

The ammo-lock was first used 2 weeks ago. The filter media in the 400 was changed during the spike, but it was cause of age and low flow from the filter. (Spillway had water).

His other tanks are all fine, with 0 ammonia and all healthy active fish. He has a 90 gallon full of african cichlids, around 15 with all different patterns and colors. We have a 10 gallon with a gold fish and an algea eater and then a 29 with a few different gouramis and danios and glo-lites. They're all 0 though. For that matter the fish from this tank all act healthy and active except for one of the buenos aires

During this spike, 3 fish died. 1 died 2 weeks ago, a 4 in rainbow shark. It was promptly removed so it couldn't discompose in the tank. The full water change was done in response to the 2 dojo loaches in the tank dying the same night. Also removed promptly.

The bala sharks seem to be fairing well with little or no damage, but the beunos aires started to look a bit ragged. He's not happy about the situation, since the beunos aires are his 2nd oldest group of fish.

He's made sure they have stress coat in their water, and wonders what else can be done to help them recover from any damage?

 

[Allivymar]

Naw, I doubt it was the Balas either.

Whoa, thats a BIG jump of ammonia overnight, especially without a known ammonia source!! I think your hubby is on to something; it may well be those ammo-chips. I have to admit, I never use anything like that (I never use anything but a dechlor) so I did a little research on how they work and yeah, the salt he added probably released the trapped ammonia. Oi. Does he always use ammo-chops or just because of the current ammonia issue? I'm wondering if he should either can the ammo-chips or stop adding salt (salt isn't really necessary; tis another one of those old beliefs that has since been discovered to be untrue) until things have straightened out at least.

Besides keep the water nitrogenous waste free, he may want to try some Melafix for the tetras. Its not a cureall but works nicely for minor finrot/injuries and helps fish heal a little faster. Its made from teatree oil and studies have been done proving some mild antibacterial properties. I personally would not use it for anything serious, but for those minor scratches and torn fins I have seen good results.

I have to also admit I use no chemical which "improve" slime coat. I did some research on them and apparently what they do is irritate the fish a little bit so they produce more slime. Healthy fish especially do not need more slime; they produce all they need naturally. Plus, AloeVera (used in Stresscoat) is useless for fish and just adds more waste to the tank.

Tell hubby I said he owes you one for being such a great help *grin*

 

[Katie_McKoy]

He'll try the Melafix and cut back all other treatments but the weekly Stress Zyme for now.

The ammo-chip was added in the 330 to help combat the ammonia. He changed it out to a completely fresh batch today to hopefully help recapture some of it, then he'll change the filter back to the normal ammo-carb mixture the other filter uses when its under complete control.

The salt was suppose to be 1 big rounded tablespoon per 5 gallons, and he only did small teaspoons. (Still 1 per 5g tho). Uncomfortable with the concept of salt in a freshwater tank anyways

The Stress coat is almost gone anyways (Using one bottle at recommended doses doesn't go far with all the tanks we have) so he'll probably just stop buying it.

we'll try to update with progress again tomorrow, hopefully it'll come under control very soon :/

 

[ferret]

I could have sworn I posted this morning...

This morning the tank was still at 7ppm. This has become a null point though.. Despite the efforts to save the tank, most of the fish have begun to die today.

Those that are alive have white on them, like scales flaking off or something. I'm a bit discouraged at this point though.. I will try to save as many as I can, but I'm expecting a total lose at this point.

I plan to allow the tank to cycle for close to two weeks before any attempts to bring in new stock are made..

 

[Allivymar]

*stunned*

It STILL measures 7 ppm despite new ammo-chips? Either the other ammo-chips released more ammonia then was measureable, or there is STILL a source of ammonia in the tank. I'm completely stumped.

And I am so sorry about the fish It sure sounds like the ammonia took quite a toll on them.

Btw, finally I now see who Katie has been typing for

 

[ferret]

Two days later and the tank, with no fish in it or food being added, just a few random plants that seem to be doing perfectly well, is still over 8ppm.

Anyone have ideas on why this isn't dropping?

 

[juliemichelle]

Are you still vacuuming and doing water changes frequently?

 

[ferret]

I'm not longer vacuuming, no need. There's nothing in the tank to vacuum out of the gravel since it hasn't had fish in it since I tore it down and cleaned it all. No water changes since 2 days ago but planning one tonight.

 

[ferret]

Well. Its been a while, so here's an update.

The oscars are doing great ;p As you can expect, even somewhat cycled, 3 oscars practically restart the tank and it has to rebuild again. I got lazy this weekend and didn't do my weekly water change, so lastnight I did a quick check to see how things are going.

The Oscar Tank has hit 0.5ppm ammonia on its own this week I expect the ammonia to hit 0 by the end of the week. The nitrites are still up, but the tank seems to be nearing the end of cycling nonetheless.

Oh, and they're getting more food now than when I started I don't feel like I'm halfway starving them anymore. They were around 3 to 3.5inches on purchase, and seem to have already grown to 4in